The % of aggressively tuned M139's failing somewhere

is proof

Unless you can provide the %, and raw numbers of tuned M139’s failing, in and out of this forum -

It’s merely forum heresay and speculation. Not proof.


I certainly do not have those numbers - so am not prepared to set hares running either way as there are plenty of forum examples (and out of forum examples) of owners running Stage 2 tunes without reporting M139 engines failing.

But forum numbers on here are not statistically significant, nor are replies updated, hence why I am calling out the statement of “The % of aggressively tuned M139's failing”.


Additionally - individual circumstances and location apply - a tuned M139 in Scotland has different ambient conditions and characteristics to one in the Middle East, for example.

We also don’t know the location, ambient, mileage, abuse and specific circumstances etc of any M139 failures either, so difficult to establish correlation/causation.


By all means state your view/opinion but I would suggest trying to pass it off as a generalised fact or “proof” is not valid/helpful.


(But if you do have statistically significant numbers of tuned M139 successful/failed vs Stage tunes, do post them as it all helps build a clearer picture)!





****
(As forum Mod I am merely trying to protect this forum (this section specifically) from being too much of an echo chamber, which I have seen many platforms fall foul of) - and credibility fails.

 

Aggressive stage 2 tunes @veeeight, those running around 2.6 bar, huge difference to those running 2.3 or even 2.4. When you're so far off the top right-hand corner as @Turbo Ed has previously explained cause I don't have our compressor map, he does, then every 0.1 counts. And you don't know everyone's driving habits, it's one thing to keep WOT for 7 seconds and quite another for 12, when you're overspeeding the turbo by half a bar!! Plus, you guys too get to see 30C at noon a few times during the summer, you're not in the Arctic Circle.

No I'm not keeping records of the exact number of cases, not so much free time to waste I'm afraid. Just seeing too many examples worldwide. But if you think the number, or % if you will, is negligible, then you can recommend your forum members to go ahead with such a tune. After all, you're not the one to pay the price should things go south are you?

 

I’m not recommending either way, but I’m definitely not scaremongering people into not tuning, as anecdotally, I’m seeing more successful Stage 2 M139 car and tunes on social media - hence challenging a statement of % M139’s failing as “proof” without any statistically significant numbers

Anyone venturing into the modification world should know that you need to have a large wallet to back things up if/when it goes wrong, “You play - be prepared to pay” - is the motto on all car forums when discussing mods!

 

I only said anyone running this much boost on that turbo better watch out, you guys are playing with fire. Not saying their engine or drivetrain is doomed. Just be financially prepared that's all. Nothing more responsible than that, from a forum member to another. You're talking about providing % like I'm some international statistical guru, without which my opinion doesn't count.

 

You're talking about providing % like I'm some international statistical guru, without which my opinion doesn't count.

Read what I said in #2668 again.

“By all means state your view/opinion but I would suggest trying to pass it off as a generalised fact or “proof” is not valid/helpful.”

anyone running this much boost on that turbo better watch out, you guys are playing with fire. Not saying their engine or drivetrain is doomed. Just be financially prepared that's all

^ Perfect

 

Most failed engine/gearbox or whatever owners don't talk about it publicly though. It's a lot easier for people to share a great dyno result or dragy times or dragstrip ETA's or other cars they demolished on the street, than a blown turbo. So expect a lot more failed cases than those you stumble upon. True story. Keep that in mind.

 

Actually, my experience on forums and social media groups is that the converse is true. They are mostly filled with people describing their faults, problems and issues. At least on the more technical forums I frequent, failed turbos, gearboxes, diffs, mods are the overwhelming majority of posts that make up the mods/tuned discussions.

As an aside, this forum (and in particular this A45 secrion) is extremely thin and quiet, I would not say that this A-Class forum is at all representative of the ownership profile.

 

As for "proof" I meant to say indication, that was me.

 

This forum in particular is different than any other forum I've been a member of and I mean it in a good way. Most forums, in my experience, are mostly means to show off, trash talk etc. Even the fact that you guys aren't interested in making build threads (even @Turbo Ed wouldn't make one, it was you who suggested it, and good that you did, so as to have all that mammoth of information in one place, considering the uniqueness of his build) speaks volumes.

But I'm mostly talking about big problems, not things about I'm hearing this and that, I mean blown turbos, engines, diff, talking about the bigger stuff. Based on what I've seen, people rarely talk, but they're first to post upgrades and how their car kicks ass

 

Well when my turbo blows up i’ll let everyone know - and I am on my 2nd trans and have merc receipts to prove it - from 28,000kms, on stage 1 for about 10,000 of those as my daily with barley any WOT pulls 😂

 

Hello, I am planning to tune my A35 AMG to stage 2 in India. I have already fitted a downpipe from Amytrix and did an ECU and TCU tune, unfortunately we realised a CPC need to be replaced and retuned during our dyne runs. Has anyone purchased a blank CPC from Mercedes. If yes how much was it? I am able to see only Weistec selling one.

 

Asking for A35 or A45?

See post #2078 in this thread.

 

Does anyone here know about any companies that may be releasing an upgraded clutch for these? Would like to hear Ed’s thoughts on that but it seems the clutch is what lets the whole transmission down - it desperately needs an upgraded one even on my stage 2 car

 

Does anyone here know about any companies that may be releasing an upgraded clutch for these?

Dodson have apparently done an upgraded clutch for the W176, according to @Lukus.

Contact them, and let us know what’s available for the W177? They will probably make one for you.

but it seems the clutch is what lets the whole transmission down

It’s all to do with the subtleties of the tune and torque request parameters. Obviously I don’t know the detail of your specific tune, so I can’t comment, but there are successful Stage 2 cars around that aren’t destroying their transmissions Obviously LC and Race Starts are not recommended.

 

Sorry can’t help but as you indicate I’m sure @Turbo Ed can.

 

Just as there are stage 2 cars with very unhappy transmissions. But you're smart, you'll say I dunno the details I can't comment n stuff like that, not in favor nor against it, so you, prospective buyer, can do whatever the f you want I'm no responsible if you end up with a 10 grand bill, there are happy stage 2 customers you could be one of them.

Me on the other hand, I know what it's like to operate half a bar beyond the comp map, so I strongly recommend the prospective buyer to stick to a 2.3 or 2.4 tops on this turbo, you're gonna make 470hp and sub 600nm with a reasonable timing advance you'll have a happy engine a happy gearbox and save yourself from very unpleasant surprises. Want more for less, you got the wrong car.

 

The video I posted last month, in the A45s video section, showed very little advantage in a stage 1 next to stock. I would just pocket the cash and stick to the little guy with the big heart we all know and love.

Digressing I am quite taken by the FL RS3. It's probably the only Audi left which will run the 2.5 5 pot, with 2026 Audis going electric.

 

This video shows the stage 1 v stock I referred to above.

 

Very little difference indeed for a claimed 70-80hp gain, 0.2 that's roughly two car lengths. Turbo's probably a blow torch at this point. Reason why I have decided to keep it stock, at least for a while longer. I do want to get a dp because our engines make an incredible noise and it's a shame to keep it muted, and I'm gonna need a custom tune but I'll specifically request a mild tune. That's it. Worst car to invest a build. A masterpiece of an engine/car otherwise.

 

Same scenario here. I have warranty fear if I do too much. So far I’ve added the Eventuri but getting the bug to drop an Armytrix ceramic coated DP in for exhaust sound. Only issue is the CEL that comes from adding a new DP needing to be tuned out or turned off. If there is a way of adding a DP that can stop the engine Light/CEL appearing I’d be very appreciative.

 

Hello nerds , i've fitted every performance part in my A45s ( tte560 , eventuri intake , full capristo exhaust and catless down pipe , methanol injection, upgraded charge pipe , kw v3 coilovers , even kw adjustable springs for stock adaptive suspension) put the problem here i'm from egypt and no one here has the experience to tune ecu , tuc , cpc and i really don't know what to do i'm stuck 🥲

 

And a turbo smart bov 🤘🏼

 

I'd never tune without the car. Sending the ECU to be flashed is ridiculous and remote tuning can never substitute the actual tuner. In fact, I'm never happy if the car hasn't been both road and dyno tuned. Road tuning first where most of the work takes place, then a little fine tuning on the dyno and actually for me if everything's fine, one final attempt on the road before you go. Helps reduce the chance of getting faults and having to return to the tuner for further tuning which means more runs, which means more money spent on fuel plus extra hours wasted. Especially on stage 3 and above which is almost never plug n play. Either way, the tuner needs to actually feel the car, not just look at some numbers sent to their email. Tuner has to be there or you may be in for troubleshooting for months! All cars I've tuned to stage 3 (hybrid and BT setups) have required at least 4 or 5 visits to the tuner to fix things I didn't like, and that's with road and dyno tuning. Don't dare to think what I would've gotten myself into otherwise. If there's no way to take the car to the tuner or have the tuner visit you, well then arm yourself with patience.

 

Sorry if I’ve got this wrong but isn’t the ECU sent away, in our case in Australia to EU, for unlocking only? The tuning here is done on the dyno once the ECU is returned unlocked. As you say remote tuning is not on, for me anyway, nor is piggy back.

 

Sorry if I’ve got this wrong but isn’t the ECU sent away, in our case in Australia to EU, for unlocking only? The tuning here is done on the dyno once the ECU is returned unlocked. As you say remote tuning is not on, for me anyway, nor is piggy back.

When we were talking about Brabus and whether they would release a tune for our cars outside of Germany, I looked at some other options, preferably remaps, and to my understanding those that required that you sent them your ECU, they did all the work and sent it back. But I'm not sending the ECU in the first place.

Same scenario here. I have warranty fear if I do too much. So far I’ve added the Eventuri but getting the bug to drop an Armytrix ceramic coated DP in for exhaust sound. Only issue is the CEL that comes from adding a new DP needing to be tuned out or turned off. If there is a way of adding a DP that can stop the engine Light/CEL appearing I’d be very appreciative.

Well a mild tune at 2.35 bar is still nearly factory safe and you're certainly within the upper edge of our compressor map, which ends at 465 hp, so you're not overspeeding the turbo either. The tune can also be configured so that the CPC is happy, so you won't have to worry about that either. And you can gain a bit more power with timing advance optimized for 100 octane fuel if available. That's what I'm gonna do right after installing the dp, for which I'm going with Armytrix as well, but I'm thinking maybe change the catback too, should produce a slightly deeper tone. But no way am I getting a dp without a tune even if there is a way to code the CEL. We used to install exhausts on the stock tune 25 years ago in Polo's and Civic's. The A45s is neither of those. And btw I race other cars often, how would I look racing a stock 8Y RS3 and losing by say half a car, in my A45s with a dp? What would you think if you were in the RS3? That's just me though, I dunno, maybe I'm overthinking it.

 

When we were talking about Brabus and whether they would release a tune for our cars outside of Germany, I looked at some other options, preferably remaps, and to my understanding those that required that you sent them your ECU, they did all the work and sent it back. But I'm not sending the ECU in the first place.

I’d never send mine as I just wouldn’t trust the condition I might get it back in.

 

@Theo, you keep referring to this compressor map.

Have you actually seen this, seen the lines, seen the numbers, or are you just quoting this from someone else that “said this”? 😜

Because your comment above reads very definitive and factual!


Because I certainly haven’t seen the map for myself, but I do know where (guesswork) the approximate lines and boundaries are - but I certainly wouldn’t go around quoting definitive numbers as I haven’t verified this for myself.

So - if you’ve seen the map for yourself, or can link us to it - awesome.

If you haven’t - then it’s forum heresay and speculation.

Even if an individual who says that they have possession of it - but won’t link to it nor share it - we are just taking one persons word (which may or may not be true) that it is factual.

That individual even says in this very thread that they have no idea what efficiency or speed the turbo is running at on the EST Stage 2 tuned car - but guesses at the efficiency number (and they clearly state that it’s a guess, which is upfront and great).

The basis of a fact sharing factual forum discussion, which is what this thread should be about, is that we have verified and factual data and preferably evidence, otherwise it’s forum heresay and speculation.

Did I search for proof that the BMW oil alternative for the diff would work as expected and not cause any problems in the long run? Did I send it over for analysis? Fortunately the MB 235.64 became available shortly after but I could've been running the BMW oil indefinitely. Also next time you take your car in for oil change, you specifically request that the whole process is filmed. Same can be said for pretty much everything that you aren't doing yourself. If you only trust your tangible proof in this life @veeeight then good luck becoming an engineer, a surgeon, a chemist, a plumber, an agronomist etc. Sometimes all you need to do is trust your gut. Like after all @Turbo Ed's posts you've read, you still have doubts he knows what he's talking about? No man, I do not for one second doubt he does have the M139 turbo compressor map.

Seriously, did sponsors complain? You don't have to answer.

As a poster commented somewhere earlier on this thread, “reading this forum makes you think that every tuned A45s is going to disintegrate when driven in the summer”.

Tell that to those with a disintegrated transmission. Everyone is gangsta until it's their money involved.

And like I've said numerous times, it's one thing to run 2.3 bar and quite another to run 2.6, it's one thing to do 7 second pulls and quite another to do 15, it's one thing to do that in the UK summer and quite another to do it in the Australian summer.

 

it's one thing to do that in the UK summer and quite another to do it in the Australian summer.

Or in Death Valley, as I posted last year with the pics of the AMGs 😎

 

This video less than a minute in talks about using a second ECU for the tune of the BMW. I cannot visualise how that would work.

 

Guys, I thought we allready went through all this?

Three points

1. If you modify (to any degree) be prepared to pay! There is no such thing as a safe tune/modification. Try and find a respectable experienced tuner, not some backyard operation that only cranks up boost.

2. If you leave the safety systems etc. intact, the car will reduce power when exceeds operating parameters rather than blowing up! Just the same as stock car. If you look around, beyond here, there are way more modified cars that are running fine than failures. There are modified track cars in Aus that have not failed in extreme conditions.

3. We all love Ed, but he has engineering goals for his car that are way beyond the needs of an average street modder. Would any of the rest of us spend more modifying the car than the original cost of the vehicle? Would you buy another engine and driveline for backup? Thats not even factoring in the time and labour put into the reasearch, data logging etc. Ed is on another level!

 

Did you mean ‘Modifying’ or ‘ECU tuning’ to any degree. I added an Eventuri a week ago and just got a great price, hard to do when buying anything for these cars in Australia, for the Armytrix Ceramic Coated 200cell down-pipe. Their effect is not going to have a neg effect on the engine. Not by my reckoning anyway!

 

Correct.

Turbo Ed approach/target is that he wants to modify/change engine components, introduce additional cooling, so that the ECU does not have to derate the power, and that he will get repeated consistent power output at the ambient and charge inlet temp he specifies.

(An expensive direction, when starting from the M139 package in the A45, which already has trade-offs)



This is different to any other conventional tuning approach - where there are additional compromises made (eg safety power derating when parameters are exceeded).


Different horses, different courses.


(And yes, with any power increase made, unless you spend additional megabucks - you will always get accelerated wear if you’re modding/tuning eg overspeeding the turbo etc. So it’s not IF but WHEN it eventually fails. The acceptability of that precise point in time is different for different people, depending on their risk/wallet outlook)

 

Unless what is left for them to fix is little things that can be done remotely. I'm not in favor of remote tuning but a little bit of code on an otherwise complete tune may be ok.
But it's tough and I can relate... Not having a local tuner sucks!

 

So can we clear a few things up, I have read through lots of post and have seen conflicting information out there about this, my understanding is the CPC in our cars has no bearing on gearbox line pressure and is not needed to be changed in order to tune the TCU correctly, if however your ECU tune is making more than 550nm of torque then then the CPC will step in and start to pull back power, along with this the TCU also has torque limitations inbuild also.

Some companies are tuning the ECUs on these cars and claiming there is no need for a CPC replacement, at a guess they must be somehow scaling certain parameters to trick the CPC into allowing the power to be made?

Has many successfully had a ECU and TCU tune done without doing the CPC and not run into trouble?

Are CPC's really needed for those with tunes making less than 550nm or are these places just selling them as part of a package to make a few extra $$ in that instance

 

To answer your query in the shortest possible way

This is the problem with forum heresay and conjecture. There is no magic 550Nm number limit/bounday. Someone saw this on a YouTube or picked it up from forum chatter, and decided to quote this number and run with it as a magic number.

If your ‘tune’ results in 500-550 ish Nm (Stage 1 ish) - it’s very unlikely the CPC will intervene so you’ll probably not need to get a new blank replacement CPC.

 

definitely noticed there is lots of opinions on it but no real facts, talking "stage 2" here as that's what most people that tune these cars seem to be running with, problem there is everyone's torque figures vary with these, but the obvious being that these gearboxes untuned if making above the 500nm mark will start to play up whether that being micro slip events of the clutches or not shifting constantly when commanded, the question is will a simple TCU tune be all that's needed or is a CPC required to solve this issue as well.

The 8G-DCT is stated to be rated up to 520nm so one would assume Mercedes would limit the torque at or below this, with most "stage 2" tunes making more than 520nm is the TCU or the CPC holding this back or in fact both of them together, as the obvious answer is the gearbox requires more line pressure at this point to maintain the clutches and have the TCU torque limitations raised to match the power the engine is producing.

 

Every tuner has a different number they are comfortable with offering, based on their approach and which parameters they tweak, in order not to get clutch slip (eg what degree of torque limiting in lower gears varies between tuners).

Have a look at EST and DMS websites, for example.

Also to be aware of - ‘550Nm’ - WHP or calculated - be sure to compare apples with apples.

 

Definitely and has always been that way with many different platforms over the years, but to see a portion offering tuning and insisting that a CPC is needed and then there is some that do not for similar power, as time goes on and people work out how these cars tick better obviously things will get more fine tuned in what is needed for certain power levels, I have no doubt that a CPC is needed when going rather high in torque but more so around the 500-600nm mark.

Some say you need a CPC in order to tune the TCU where others do not.

Always aware that you take these numbers lightly as there's no definite comparability with different dynos and climates etc.