[Turbo Ed]

July-August heatwaves aside, occasionally coming in from the Sahara Desert, yeah it's very comfortable all year round. But that's just where I am; the country has an incredible climatic diversity from freezing winters in the north, to blazing hot summers in central Greece, such as eastern Thessaly. If you search for Thessaly you'll see where that is, and it's actually the hottest place in the entire country, but only in the summer. And by that I mean 43°C is piece of cake, pretty sure visitors from the ME will feel right at home. But winters and other seasons are a different story. Islands have their own weather and that's typically both mild winters and summers. In North-Western Greece it rains like mad the entire fall, visitors from the UK will think they never left home and in the winter everything is covered in snow in a large part of the region.

Anyways I'll post up a quick video of a drive around my area some time. There are several Airbnb resorts in the area btw, you might wanna take note 😛

Theo,

What you describe is the perfect explanation of why OEM vehicles are Designed / Tuned the way they are and why professional Tuners in Germany won't tale our vehicle over 470 HP on the standard turbo.
That very diversity in ambient conditions which you describe, is precisely the point.

Do you seriously want to tune your car to the razor's edge for operation in a 20 to 25C ambient temp range (as the English can actually do) and then be unable to use it in the summer in the middle of your own country?
I guess if you are prepared to live with those significant limitations, knock your self out.

You already know my own required operating parameters and for anyone ever asking my advice here here on what and/ or how to go about mods, I shall always respond trying to maintain as far as possible similar operating parameters to that of the original design.
If it isn't possible, then I shall describe the possible issues so the questioner can do their own, risk/ benefit analysis.

 

[Forrester]

It is only a matter of time!!

However, while I realise you guys have left Europe, does this mean you never take your personal vehicles into Central or Southern parts of the Continent?

We haven't left Europe, we are attached to the same continental shelf.

My daughter and boyfriend just drove back from France tonight. Other family members and neighbours have been travelling across Europe this summer. It's trickier with the pandemic mainly because of the various forms and tests.

 

[Turbo Ed]

We haven't left Europe, we are attached to the same continental shelf.

My daughter and boyfriend just drove back from France tonight. Other family members and neighbours have been travelling across Europe this summer. It's trickier with the pandemic mainly because of the various forms and tests.

LOL!!!
Indeed!!
So my original example of English tuned vehicles being "tried" on German Autobahns, does, actually stand up?

 

[Forrester]

LOL!!!
Indeed!!
So my original example of English tuned vehicles being "tried" on German Autobahns, does, actually stand up?

You'll have to remind me which chapter of your comments you are referring to. I'm sure @nn7man would have responded appropriately to it.

 

[Turbo Ed]

You'll have to remind me which chapter of your comments you are referring to. I'm sure @nn7man would have responded appropriately to it.

The one to which you responded with "global warming has passed by the UK"

@nn7man made the absolutely accurate comment that with the English climate, you can all "tune the f**k out of your cars".

My point was, what happens when you take said vehicle on holidays in Central Europe in the Summer?

With our A45S's, if you took an English tuned, 500 HP, standard turbo vehicle and wanted to " see what it would do" on a German autobahn in the middle of a central European summer, your holiday is almost certainly going to become significantly more expensive than for what you originally allowed.

 

[Forrester]

Digressing slightly. I probably would have driven to Brabus and got my car turned by now if it wasn’t for the pandemic. And also I think there might be a risk of double taxation.

 

[Turbo Ed]

Digressing slightly. I probably would have driven to Brabus and got my car turned by now if it wasn’t for the pandemic. And also I think there might be a risk of double taxation.

Well, you certainly cannot go wrong with Brabus, that is for sure.

Hasn't the situation with European / UK VAT interchange credits been sorted yet?

 

[Theo]

Well, I was racing someone and I think we did like four runs or so, but your right it was the first time to not give it enough recovery time. Few seconds doesn't count does it? Anyway I was gonna do one final run and when I heard the AC coming on, I instantly knew what was going on as I had read about it, so I decided to pass. Drove normally for the next 15 minutes which I'm sure was more than enough, like I said I think the AC wasn't needed for more than a couple of minutes. And then I did one final 5 second run just to check if I still had full power and everything was ok.

Technical question: is there a valve that isolates the engine from the cabin when that happens? So that all that air coming from the heat exchanger is directed exclusively to the engine. As I said nothing was coming out of the vents and there was no temp shown on screen, no fan speed no nothing. Oh, based on your experience, what would've happened if I had turned on the fan? I'm guessing the button wouldn't even work. Car would be like:

Do you think the ECU calling the AC for help registers as event? Not as fault because that wasn't no fault, but as event?

So on track days I bet the AC coming on is just regular stuff. And then you're losing power because of it. How much is it, 10%? But that doesn't make sense then. Our cars aren't 421hp on track days?

 

[Theo]

The one to which you responded with "global warming has passed by the UK"

@nn7man made the absolutely accurate comment that with the English climate, you can all "tune the f**k out of your cars".

My point was, what happens when you take said vehicle on holidays in Central Europe in the Summer?

With our A45S's, if you took an English tuned, 500 HP, standard turbo vehicle and wanted to " see what it would do" on a German autobahn in the middle of a central European summer, your holiday is almost certainly going to become significantly more expensive than for what you originally allowed.

Then you'd sleep in a tent by the beach. No 5 star 1k/night hotel on that holiday. Problem solved.

 

[Turbo Ed]

Then you'd sleep in a tent by the beach. No 5 star 1k/night hotel on that holiday. Problem solved.

LOL,

As in a BALTIC SEA beach??? Remember, we are talking about Germany!!!

 

[Theo]

Theo,

What you describe is the perfect explanation of why OEM vehicles are Designed / Tuned the way they are and why professional Tuners in Germany won't tale our vehicle over 470 HP on the standard turbo.
That very diversity in ambient conditions which you describe, is precisely the point.

Do you seriously want to tune your car to the razor's edge for operation in a 20 to 25C ambient temp range (as the English can actually do) and then be unable to use it in the summer in the middle of your own country?
I guess if you are prepared to live with those significant limitations, knock your self out.

You already know my own required operating parameters and for anyone ever asking my advice here here on what and/ or how to go about mods, I shall always respond trying to maintain as far as possible similar operating parameters to that of the original design.
If it isn't possible, then I shall describe the possible issues so the questioner can do their own, risk/ benefit analysis.

Actually I'm in the same boat as @Forrester. Think I'm going for Brabus for now. But in a few years, considering I plan to keep the car for many more years as long as it remains reliable and free from expensive repairs, I might want more I dunno. On the other hand, my wife and I are looking into buying a Nissan GTR in a couple of years time (and tune it), which will pair very nicely with the A45s. So in that case, perhaps the A45s will be best left at the Brabus tuned 450hp.

But if I wanted more now, I wouldn't spend several grand for 525hp, I'd choose a strong UK tune and be happy with 490hp for a fraction of that price.

 

[Theo]

LOL,

As in a BALTIC SEA beach??? Remember, we are talking about Germany!!!

Wherever, in a fishing boat. Whatever it takes, haha.

 

[Turbo Ed]

Well, I was racing someone and I think we did like four runs or so, but your right it was the first time to not give it enough recovery time. Few seconds doesn't count does it? Anyway I was gonna do one final run and when I heard the AC coming on, I instantly knew what was going on as I had read about it, so I decided to pass. Drove normally for the next 15 minutes which I'm sure was more than enough, like I said I think the AC wasn't needed for more than a couple of minutes. And then I did one final 5 second run just to check if I still had full power and everything was ok.

Technical question: is there a valve that isolates the engine from the cabin when that happens? So that all that air coming from the heat exchanger is directed exclusively to the engine. As I said nothing was coming out of the vents and there was no temp shown on screen, no fan speed no nothing. Oh, based on your experience, what would've happened if I had turned on the fan? I'm guessing the button wouldn't even work. Car would be like:

View attachment 8799

Do you think the ECU calling the AC for help registers as event? Not as fault because that wasn't no fault, but as event?

So on track days I bet the AC coming on is just regular stuff. And then you're losing power because of it. How much is it, 10%? But that doesn't make sense then. Our cars aren't 421hp on track days?

Theo,
I think you have slightly misunderstood the heat exchanger function between the A/C system and the intercooler cooling fluid.
You know that the low pressure side of the A/C system is cold, correct?
All they are doing is routing the low pressure A/C line through a heat exchanger with the intercooler fluid.
When this system is activated, it does nothing in the cabin; however obviously the A/C compressor is activated, with the consequential power loss.
Cabin A/C operation is entirely separate.
I believe both can work simultaneously; however no idea of the relative effect of one on the other..
I don't think the Germans expect you to need 100% Intercooler performance with the A/C on in the cabin.
Probably not been to Central Greece in the summer!!

I don't believe activating the system would be recorded as an "event" although truthfully, not sure.

Not sure of the power loss of the A/C operation. Will see if I can get it measured for you on one of my upcoming dyno runs.
I would expect it be at least 5% or 20 HP.
When the engine's are power rated, it is NOT with the A/C operational.

 

[Turbo Ed]

Actually I'm in the same boat as @Forrester. Think I'm going for Brabus for now. But in a few years, considering I plan to keep the car for many more years as long as it remains reliable and free from expensive repairs, I might want more I dunno. On the other hand, my wife and I are looking into buying a Nissan GTR in a couple of years time (and tune it), which will pair very nicely with the A45s. So in that case, perhaps the A45s will be best left at the Brabus tuned 450hp.

But if I wanted more now, I wouldn't spend several grand for 525hp, I'd choose a strong UK tune and be happy with 490hp for a fraction of that price.

And not race in an ambient any higher than the English see?

 

[changchewsoon]

Let's not also forget that the ECU has a lot of safety measures built in and it will pull timing, reduce boost etc when the parameters changes like the air intake temp, fuel temp, oil temp, knocking etc etc.

Unless the the tuner also meddled with the calibrations to tell the ECU to ignore it or the tuner alters the parameters in the diagnostic tables then I think we will be at the higher risk of the engine detonation/turbo failure or some complications that arises due to the ECU not able to take action to protect the engine.

In my country, the ambient temperature can be as high as 40-45 degrees during the daytime and 20-25 degrees in the evening.

The logs that were done on the dyno is just a WOT pull on one gear and that doesn't tell much.

Which is why I had to do multiple logs at various ambient temperature with various different fuel from WOT pulls to just normal driving in comfort mode (although I run permanently on RON 100 now) and had it reviewed by him to ensure the ECU takes appropriate measures to intervene when it needs to, which is reflected in the form of timing pull, boost reduction etc etc.

Just like you guys, I agree that there isn't really any need to take the extra risk for just that little bit more of power and have the car running at limit with only razor edge margin of tolerance. Of course, that is entirely up to the individual.

I have a 500 whp Toyota Yaris as a toy car and it runs on a standalone ECU from Autronic. Even with a fully built engine, my tuner was also being very cautious and ensured that the car runs within safety limits and not all out batshit crazy even the engine can take the extra abuse as I also drive it as a normal street car.

 

[Turbo Ed]

Let's not also forget that the ECU has a lot of safety measures built in and it will pull timing, reduce boost etc when the parameters changes like the air intake temp, fuel temp, oil temp, knocking etc etc.

Unless the the tuner also meddled with the calibrations to tell the ECU to ignore it or the tuner alters the parameters in the diagnostic tables then I think we will be at the higher risk of the engine detonation/turbo failure or some complications that arises due to the ECU not able to take action to protect the engine.

In my country, the ambient temperature can be as high as 40-45 degrees during the daytime and 20-25 degrees in the evening.

The logs that were done on the dyno is just a WOT pull on one gear and that doesn't tell much.

Which is why I had to do multiple logs at various ambient temperature with various different fuel on from WOT pulls to just normal driving in comfort mode (although I run permanently on RON 100 now) and had it reviewed by him to ensure the ECU takes appropriate measures to intervene when it needs to, which is reflected in the form of timing pull, boost reduction etc etc.

Just like you guys, I agree that there isn't really any need to take the extra risk for just that little bit more of power and have the car running at limit with only razor edge margin of tolerance. Of course, that is entirely up to the individual.

Everything you say is 100% accurate and which is entirely my point.
Presumably we are all trying to make more power.
IF, for those of us living in "climatically challenged" environments, the ECU does all the things you correctly outline, as a consequence of, amongst other things, what the ECU considers to be excessive Inlet manifold temperatures, the result will be REDUCED POWER. (To save the engine)

So running the standard turbo into OVERSPEED could very easily and almost certainly will result in less power, under our conditions.
Something the English will probably never see,

 

[veeeight]

 

[Theo]

And not race in an ambient any higher than the English see?

It's never been driven hard above 30°C and you know what my runs are. Car hardly feels anything. Just that one time last Friday I got AC protection activated but it was like 16°C.

 

[Theo]

That was loud and clear.

 

[Theo]

Theo,
I think you have slightly misunderstood the heat exchanger function between the A/C system and the intercooler cooling fluid.
You know that the low pressure side of the A/C system is cold, correct?
All they are doing is routing the low pressure A/C line through a heat exchanger with the intercooler fluid.
When this system is activated, it does nothing in the cabin; however obviously the A/C compressor is activated, with the consequential power loss.
Cabin A/C operation is entirely separate.
I believe both can work simultaneously; however no idea of the relative effect of one on the other..
I don't think the Germans expect you to need 100% Intercooler performance with the A/C on in the cabin.
Probably not been to Central Greece in the summer!!

I don't believe activating the system would be recorded as an "event" although truthfully, not sure.

Not sure of the power loss of the A/C operation. Will see if I can get it measured for you on one of my upcoming dyno runs.
I would expect it be at least 5% or 20 HP.
When the engine's are power rated, it is NOT with the A/C operational.

I know it's not but I mean, when you drive it hard enough that the AC comes on, your power will be reduced. So if all it takes for it to kick in is four runs in a row without recovery time in between at 16°C then it should always happen on track days. So on track days our cars are never 421hp as you'll be going around the track with the AC on.