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Do you know if any of the Aftermarket tuners have looked at the physical fitment issues?
The E-Turbo is considerably larger than ours and ours definitely do not have a lot of spare room, as I am sure you would be well aware.
I don't have any concrete information on hand yet, I'll share when I do.
 

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Summers aren't typically 45°C where I am and by that I mean you're not gonna see that often, but it's true that in the recent years there's been an increasing number of heatwaves between July and August. However 35°C - 37°C is still what's considered normal. June we usually get to see the first 30's and September we're back under 30's. Right now the time is 3:50pm and we got a comfortable 24°C. So what I wanna say is, heatwaves aside (which are becoming increasingly frequent in many parts of the world), there aren't really any extremes. And definitely not to the point of damaging the engine because of it.

1st gear roll to 180 - 200 kph is what I mostly do and indeed, I very rarely go above 200 kph. But it's always late at night anyway, when traffic is from low to almost zero, such as the launch I posted a week ago. And that time of the day, even in the warmest months, we don't see above an almost comfortable 28°C. Maybe in a heatwave we might see 32 which is truly, close to unbearable with humidity being through the roof at the same time. But like I said, heatwaves aside, nothing extreme.

I'd rather spend my money on a strong tune (including CPC and TCU to do it properly) and aim at 490hp, than dishing out 3k on a new turbo, plus 4k on the exhaust + supporting mods. That's the 10 grand I was referring to. Make it 8k if it sounds more reasonable I dunno, still a lot of money for what, an additional 35hp? We have an entirely different approach and that's fine.

Theo,

Sounds like you live in an almost perfect climate!! :)
For at least 10 months of the year, anyway!

However, NO professional Engineer is EVER going to provide advice on that basis.
Not ever.
Where I live, a week of mid 40C's , six or eight times between early Dec through late March is not only normal, but increasing in frequency.
Also fairly normal across SW USA.

What' s more, think of guys on here, living across the ME.
You can add at least 5C to what I experience.

Unless someone asking me the question provides LOTS of info regarding their personal circumstances, (in the way you do, fortunately), I am always going to err on the side of caution.
That is what is called, "being professional"

What most people don't understand, is how much they are "getting away with", when aftermarket tuning of their vehicles.

Obviously there are MANY factors affecting what one can "get away with".
The principal one is the " length of time, at any one time, one spends at WOT Full Load".
Another significant one is local climatic conditions.
What one could "get away with" in the UK, would kill most cars in an Australian summer.

I shall talk more about these factors, probably on the other thread, to keep @veeeight happy; however in the meantime, given your local conditions and operating parameters, turbo overspeed away to your heart's content.
As I said, having now looked inside our turbo, it is going to take A LOT of abuse to break it mechanically.
 

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It's the way an engineer would think I suppose. But I like your answer because it's an honest one. It's a good answer.
Never spoke or chatted with an engineer before btw.

For the record, though, I would never recommend anyone to beat on their car in the mid 40's, heck even mid 30's for that matter. And that's any car, not necessarily a 210hp per liter one. Low traffic isn't the only reason I've been doing this late at night, when I believe even the hottest weather shouldn't be that bad.
 

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It's the way an engineer would think I suppose. But I like your answer because it's an honest one. It's a good answer.
Never spoke or chatted with an engineer before btw.

For the record, though, I would never recommend anyone to beat on their car in the mid 40's, heck even mid 30's for that matter. And that's any car, not necessarily a 210hp per liter one. Low traffic isn't the only reason I've been doing this late at night, when I believe even the hottest weather shouldn't be that bad.

Theo,

Here is an example of what I mean, without all the engineering backstory, which I had better post on the other thread,

You are a UK A45S owner and have you vehicle " tuned" to 500 HP..
You are in an environment with an average year round temperature under 25C and 30C is considered a heat wave!! :)

1) You "sweep" dyno it, like most Tuners in the aftermarket tuning industry do. (This will be part of the extended discussion)
2) You 60 to 130 MPH Dragy it.
3) You might take it to the Pod and see what it will run in the Quarter.
Max time, at any one time, you spend at WOT, Full Load?
12 seconds!!
You could use it night or day, most of the year like this in the UK without problem.

Now, it comes to August and you have couple of weeks holiday.
You think, " wouldn't it be cool to go to Germany and check out what my tuned A45S can REALLY do, on a Sunday afternoon without any HGV's on the autobahn?"
You get over there and Germany is having one of its increasingly common 40C "periods".

You could probably run at WOT Full Load, with engine output balanced against wind resistance for multiple minutes, (I certainly did !!! :)); however, one minute, or FIVE TIMES the time period you could ever do in the UK, is definitely sufficient to grenade the M139, under these climatic circumstances.

Think the above scenario is restricted to UK tuned vehicles taken to Germany in the summer?
Not on your life.
Just a couple of others, to "internationalise " my advice.
1) Mile Racing in Texas in their summer.
2) The Al Ain Expressway out of Dubai. (Speed limit at 2.00 AM? Yeah, right! What's more, it can STILL be 40C!! )
3) The "highway" from Alice Springs to Darwin. (Yes, I know it currently has a 130 KPH limit, however NO Australian takes any notice of it!! :))

Any of the above three offer the opportunity for holding WOT Full Load for well over 12 seconds in ambient over 40C
I'll bet there are others all around the world.

Hence the caution with which I provide professional advice
 

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You're getting into all that trouble, not to mention expense, just for research, that's hot d4mn impressive and shows your kind of passion I was talking about in the other thread. In contrast, I would tune my car to 600hp for no reason other than haul ass. Boy do I seem primitive? It's like someone bought us a ball, you tear yours to pieces to see what it's made of, publish your findings and with the money that earns you, you buy another thing to broaden your knowledge. In contrast, I kick mine as hard as I can to see how far I can kick it, and eventually lose it.

Anyways, no I'm afraid I don't. I'm new to MB this is my first MB car, but I'm happy to say I've already acquired decent knowledge in nearly two years that I've been here. Boy was I like a fish out of water when I first got here, haha.

Theo,

Let's talk about aftermarket Tuning and what one can "get away with".

For a while you have heard me going on about " the length of time, at any one time, the vehicle is able to be held at WOT, Full Load"

Why is this important and how does it effect "Tuning"?.
It is all about Thermal Load Stability within the engine, particularly with respect to certain components in the Cylinder Head and the Pistons / Rings / Cylinder Block bores.

It starts with the fact that there are two forms of engine tuning.
1) The traditional manner and the way the OEM's still do it.
This is called "Step Tuning" and it involves holding the engine at a single RPM "step" until all engine operating parameters, both temperature and pressure have stabilised , recording the torque output, (HP is calculated from this), before moving onto the next RPM step.
You go right through the RPM range of the engine in this slow and time consuming manner.
(In steps of somewhere between 100 and 500 RPM, depending upon the accuracy the OEM is chasing).
The time duration of each step varies with many parameters; however I have never seen it be less than 30 seconds per step and frequently longer.
As I would hope you can see, this is very hard on the engine, extremely time consuming and requires a VERY well set up test cell.
(Usually with an OEM this is done on an engine dyno)
This process is from where the car companies obtain those sexy PR images with the turbo / exhaust manifold all glowing red.
This is how all OEM engine development is undertaken and how they generate the Power curves which they publish.

2) Aftermarket Tuning, known as "Sweep Tuning"
This simply involves accelerating the engine from some low rpm figure, through to redline, in a single "sweep", of somewhere between 6 and 12 seconds duration , depending upon the engine power being produced and the load being applied by the particular chassis dyno.
Sweep tuning is employed by almost all Aftermarket Tuners for two, very good, (to them) reasons
a) Their test cells are not set up to cope with the thermal loads created by Step Tuning. (You can imagine the heat coming off the engine, the way the car companies do it)
b) Most importantly, Sweep Tuning places so much less thermal load on the engine, that it substantially reduces the risk of damge to the engine during the tuning process and thus upsetting you, the customer.

Now, on the surface, this would appear to be a good thing, correct? After all, reduced risk to your engine seems like something everyone would want, correct?
Well actually no, it all depends upon how you want to use you vehicle.
If all you ever want to do, is apply full load for approximately the same period of time, or just a few seconds longer, than it spends on a sweep dyno run, then fine, go for it.

Which is from where my 12 seconds duration at WOT Full Load, at any one time, originates.

However, if you want to use you vehicle fore MORE than12 seconds at WOT Full Load, at any one time, then there are all sorts of issues involved.

Aftermarket Tuners, chasing the highest possible numbers for commercial bragging rights, are encouraged, simply by their Tuning methodology, to run more ignition advance and leaner Air/ Fuel ratios , (not to mention, MORE BOOST) than would ever be the case if they were Tuning using the OEM professional Step Tuning approach.
It can also cause them to miss a crucial ancillary parameter, such as fuel volume supply,. simply because of the relatively short sweep duration involved.
(Dynojet's are particularly bad in this regard and were directly responsible for multiple engine failures in competition events all over the USA ,until the Tuners using them caught onto the issues)

This time duration at WOT parameter, is why you can "get away with" running compressor overspeed (assuming mechanical integrity, of course), at ridiculous compressor discharge temperatures, for a few seconds. Along with many other "wrong" elements of the tuning process.

NOTHING in the engine has thermally stabilised in the few seconds for which you are applying WOT , Full Load, during a single Sweep Tuning Dyno run, or a 60 to 130 MPH Dragy run.
Which, unknowingly, is upon which you are relying to avoid grenading your engine.

Just don't go Mile Racing in Texas on a summer's day with that type of tuning, that's all !!!! :)

Or 1000M Racing on an Australian summer's day!! :)
 

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Owners running maxed out setups also prefer downhill runs. Less load on their engine. But uphill is no problem for bigger engines.

Btw last night after my post #666 LoL on the General Tuning Thread, I went out for a fun drive and after putting it through a good beating, it was the first time the AC kicked in to cool down the engine. I remember reading about this but never seen it happen. So as I was doing one run after another, my usual sub 12 second runs, along with one time hitting the 7k limiter for a couple of seconds as I was distracted watching the road and missed the gear change (think I was in 3rd), I suddenly heard the AC briefly making its usual hissing sound as it kicks in, and I'm sure it wasn't me that turned it on. Furthermore, nothing came out of the vents. Fan was switched off too. So it's safe to say that it really happened, the ECU called the AC for a little help, to save the engine from evil Theo. Engine oil temp was at 106°C and gearbox at 93°C or so, but I remember I've seen these temps before, only no AC help was needed. Question is why now? Coolant was at 90°C so no change there, or so I saw it was, but I've heard from other owners (different make) that sometimes coolant may climb to even 100°C momentarily before the ECU does its thing and may not even register so the driver won't be able to know. So with oil temps being nothing out of the ordinary for spirited driving, perhaps it was coolant temp that caused it.

(edit: on second thought, the AC would intervene only to lower inlet temps if the IC can't cope, right? So I guess that's what triggered it)

Anyways, engine oil very quickly dropped to 95°C (gearbox took its time as always) and a little while after that it was under 90°C. Not sure at what point the AC was turned off, but only a couple of minutes after it kicked in, I did check my idle consumption and it was at 1L/h to 1.1 which I've seen before with the AC off. So I'm sure it wasn't needed for more than two minutes.

I'm glad it happened, now I know that that clever feature actually works!
 
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Theo,

Here is an example of what I mean, without all the engineering backstory, which I had better post on the other thread,

You are a UK A45S owner and have you vehicle " tuned" to 500 HP..
You are in an environment with an average year round temperature under 25C and 30C is considered a heat wave!! :)

1) You "sweep" dyno it, like most Tuners in the aftermarket tuning industry do. (This will be part of the extended discussion)
2) You 60 to 130 MPH Dragy it.
3) You might take it to the Pod and see what it will run in the Quarter.
Max time, at any one time, you spend at WOT, Full Load?
12 seconds!!
You could use it night or day, most of the year like this in the UK without problem.

Now, it comes to August and you have couple of weeks holiday.
You think, " wouldn't it be cool to go to Germany and check out what my tuned A45S can REALLY do, on a Sunday afternoon without any HGV's on the autobahn?"
You get over there and Germany is having one of its increasingly common 40C "periods".

You could probably run at WOT Full Load, with engine output balanced against wind resistance for multiple minutes, (I certainly did !!! :)); however, one minute, or FIVE TIMES the time period you could ever do in the UK, is definitely sufficient to grenade the M139, under these climatic circumstances.

Think the above scenario is restricted to UK tuned vehicles taken to Germany in the summer?
Not on your life.
Just a couple of others, to "internationalise " my advice.
1) Mile Racing in Texas in their summer.
2) The Al Ain Expressway out of Dubai. (Speed limit at 2.00 AM? Yeah, right! What's more, it can STILL be 40C!! )
3) The "highway" from Alice Springs to Darwin. (Yes, I know it currently has a 130 KPH limit, however NO Australian takes any notice of it!! :))

Any of the above three offer the opportunity for holding WOT Full Load for well over 12 seconds in ambient over 40C
I'll bet there are others all around the world.

Hence the caution with which I provide professional advice

You are a UK A45S owner and have you vehicle " tuned" to 500 HP..
You are in an environment with an average year round temperature under 25C and 30C is considered a heat wave!! :)
Global warming has passed the UK by. Especially this summer.
 
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2021 AMG A45 S Plus, Sun Yellow, DTUK 470 PS, Akrapovic Evolution in Ti
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Average year round is probably between 10 and 15C, we can tune the ***k out of UK cars :)
 

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And other European cities near London were in the 30's, such as Paris. When did you guys raise an anti-heatwave field above the English Channel? Wasn't on the news.
 
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You're conflating peaks and averages. Paris might have peaks of 30C+ but year round average is way way below that. Then coastal climate here in much of the UK, nothing like mainland Europe.
 

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Theo,

Sounds like you live in an almost perfect climate!! :)
For at least 10 months of the year, anyway!

However, NO professional Engineer is EVER going to provide advice on that basis.
Not ever.
Where I live, a week of mid 40C's , six or eight times between early Dec through late March is not only normal, but increasing in frequency.
Also fairly normal across SW USA.

What' s more, think of guys on here, living across the ME.
You can add at least 5C to what I experience.

Unless someone asking me the question provides LOTS of info regarding their personal circumstances, (in the way you do, fortunately), I am always going to err on the side of caution.
That is what is called, "being professional"

What most people don't understand, is how much they are "getting away with", when aftermarket tuning of their vehicles.

Obviously there are MANY factors affecting what one can "get away with".
The principal one is the " length of time, at any one time, one spends at WOT Full Load".
Another significant one is local climatic conditions.
What one could "get away with" in the UK, would kill most cars in an Australian summer.

I shall talk more about these factors, probably on the other thread, to keep @veeeight happy; however in the meantime, given your local conditions and operating parameters, turbo overspeed away to your heart's content.
As I said, having now looked inside our turbo, it is going to take A LOT of abuse to break it mechanically.
July-August heatwaves aside, occasionally coming in from the Sahara Desert, yeah it's very comfortable all year round. But that's just where I am; the country has an incredible climatic diversity from freezing winters in the north, to blazing hot summers in central Greece, such as eastern Thessaly. If you search for Thessaly you'll see where that is, and it's actually the hottest place in the entire country, but only in the summer. And by that I mean 43°C is piece of cake, pretty sure visitors from the ME will feel right at home. But winters and other seasons are a different story. Islands have their own weather and that's typically both mild winters and summers. In North-Western Greece it rains like mad the entire fall, visitors from the UK will think they never left home and in the winter everything is covered in snow in a large part of the region.

Anyways I'll post up a quick video of a drive around my area some time. There are several Airbnb resorts in the area btw, you might wanna take note 😛
 

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Owners running maxed out setups also prefer downhill runs. Less load on their engine. But uphill is no problem for bigger engines.

Btw last night after my post #666 LoL on the General Tuning Thread, I went out for a fun drive and after putting it through a good beating, it was the first time the AC kicked in to cool down the engine. I remember reading about this but never seen it happen. So as I was doing one run after another, my usual sub 12 second runs, along with one time hitting the 7k limiter for a couple of seconds as I was distracted watching the road and missed the gear change (think I was in 3rd), I suddenly heard the AC briefly making its usual hissing sound as it kicks in, and I'm sure it wasn't me that turned it on. Furthermore, nothing came out of the vents. Fan was switched off too. So it's safe to say that it really happened, the ECU called the AC for a little help, to save the engine from evil Theo. Engine oil temp was at 106°C and gearbox at 93°C or so, but I remember I've seen these temps before, only no AC help was needed. Question is why now? Coolant was at 90°C so no change there, or so I saw it was, but I've heard from other owners (different make) that sometimes coolant may climb to even 100°C momentarily before the ECU does its thing and may not even register so the driver won't be able to know. So with oil temps being nothing out of the ordinary for spirited driving, perhaps it was coolant temp that caused it.

(edit: on second thought, the AC would intervene only to lower inlet temps if the IC can't cope, right? So I guess that's what triggered it)

Anyways, engine oil very quickly dropped to 95°C (gearbox took its time as always) and a little while after that it was under 90°C. Not sure at what point the AC was turned off, but only a couple of minutes after it kicked in, I did check my idle consumption and it was at 1L/h to 1.1 which I've seen before with the AC off. So I'm sure it wasn't needed for more than two minutes.

I'm glad it happened, now I know that that clever feature actually works!
Theo,
Oh I am sure it really happened, just as you described.
However, it is nothing about which to be happy!! :)

You triggered your engine's " last line of defence"!!

The trigger for what occurred was inlet manifold air temperature, which is monitored by the vehicle's ECU, amongst many other parameters.
I am guessing that without realizing it, you slightly varied your usual test procedures.
Most likely, slightly shortening the recovery time period between full power runs.

I am guessing that the water temperature in your intercooler fluid circuit rose sufficiently in temperature that it was no longer able to reduce the inlet manifold air temperature, below the A/C trigger cut in point.
While it is certainly a clever safety feature of our vehicles, personally I would prefer to design around it never being required.

In a competition situation, such as standing KM or Mile Racing, it would hurt your speed, as the "help" from the Intercooler fluid/ A/C circuit heat exchanger, would not out way the power drain of the A/C compressor.
Basically, it is a safety feature, not a power improvement one.
 

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July-August heatwaves aside, occasionally coming in from the Sahara Desert, yeah it's very comfortable all year round. But that's just where I am; the country has an incredible climatic diversity from freezing winters in the north, to blazing hot summers in central Greece, such as eastern Thessaly. If you search for Thessaly you'll see where that is, and it's actually the hottest place in the entire country, but only in the summer. And by that I mean 43°C is piece of cake, pretty sure visitors from the ME will feel right at home. But winters and other seasons are a different story. Islands have their own weather and that's typically both mild winters and summers. In North-Western Greece it rains like mad the entire fall, visitors from the UK will think they never left home and in the winter everything is covered in snow in a large part of the region.

Anyways I'll post up a quick video of a drive around my area some time. There are several Airbnb resorts in the area btw, you might wanna take note 😛
Theo,

What you describe is the perfect explanation of why OEM vehicles are Designed / Tuned the way they are and why professional Tuners in Germany won't tale our vehicle over 470 HP on the standard turbo.
That very diversity in ambient conditions which you describe, is precisely the point.

Do you seriously want to tune your car to the razor's edge for operation in a 20 to 25C ambient temp range (as the English can actually do) and then be unable to use it in the summer in the middle of your own country?
I guess if you are prepared to live with those significant limitations, knock your self out.

You already know my own required operating parameters and for anyone ever asking my advice here here on what and/ or how to go about mods, I shall always respond trying to maintain as far as possible similar operating parameters to that of the original design.
If it isn't possible, then I shall describe the possible issues so the questioner can do their own, risk/ benefit analysis.
 

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It is only a matter of time!! :)

However, while I realise you guys have left Europe, does this mean you never take your personal vehicles into Central or Southern parts of the Continent?
We haven't left Europe, we are attached to the same continental shelf.

My daughter and boyfriend just drove back from France tonight. Other family members and neighbours have been travelling across Europe this summer. It's trickier with the pandemic mainly because of the various forms and tests.
 

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We haven't left Europe, we are attached to the same continental shelf.

My daughter and boyfriend just drove back from France tonight. Other family members and neighbours have been travelling across Europe this summer. It's trickier with the pandemic mainly because of the various forms and tests.
LOL!!! :)
Indeed!!
So my original example of English tuned vehicles being "tried" on German Autobahns, does, actually stand up?
 

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LOL!!! :)
Indeed!!
So my original example of English tuned vehicles being "tried" on German Autobahns, does, actually stand up?
You'll have to remind me which chapter of your comments you are referring to. I'm sure @nn7man would have responded appropriately to it.
 

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You'll have to remind me which chapter of your comments you are referring to. I'm sure @nn7man would have responded appropriately to it.
The one to which you responded with "global warming has passed by the UK"

@nn7man made the absolutely accurate comment that with the English climate, you can all "tune the f**k out of your cars".

My point was, what happens when you take said vehicle on holidays in Central Europe in the Summer?

With our A45S's, if you took an English tuned, 500 HP, standard turbo vehicle and wanted to " see what it would do" on a German autobahn in the middle of a central European summer, your holiday is almost certainly going to become significantly more expensive than for what you originally allowed.
 

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Digressing slightly. I probably would have driven to Brabus and got my car turned by now if it wasn’t for the pandemic. And also I think there might be a risk of double taxation.
 

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Digressing slightly. I probably would have driven to Brabus and got my car turned by now if it wasn’t for the pandemic. And also I think there might be a risk of double taxation.
Well, you certainly cannot go wrong with Brabus, that is for sure.

Hasn't the situation with European / UK VAT interchange credits been sorted yet?
 
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