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@DutchA45s Your tuner should be able to address the clutch slip by increasing the torque clamp request but that is not the only area he should look in.

Please tell him to look into the ignition tables as well. I know this may sound counter intuitive, but the ignition tables is definitely something your tuner can relook into again. There are many cross dependencies on the new Bosch MG1 architecture which many tuners are now discovering and addressing as we speak.

If you can, please place close attention when you do WOT shifts out of comfort mode with the current tune you have, say in Sport+ or Race mode and listen carefully whether you hear any exhaust farts during shifts. If you don't, then you definitely need to ask your tuner to look into the ignition tables.

In the stock ECU calibration, you should hear the exhaust farts clearly during WOT shifts with the ignition cuts happening. But if you mess up the ignition tables, it will introduce all sorts of funny things and in my case clutch slip was one of them.

I too had clutch slips in the early days of my tune while driving on the road and my tuner was able to address it after a couple of rounds of datalogging and adjustments and the car later registered higher torque numbers on the dyno with further calibrations and I have no more slip even till present day.

Just out of curiosity, did you had your CPC remapped as well or just the ECU alone?
A word of advice , please.

During the development of the Tune in your vehicle, was there ever a point in time at which you had the ECU retuned, the clutch disc clamp load increased via the TCU; however nothing done to the CPC?
If so, what was the result?
if not, what did your Tuner warn you could have theoretically occurred?
 

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LOL!! You are probably correct.
However, as others here have noted, I can be quite obstinate, so we shall see in due course.!! :)

Re the RS3, no pricing.
You have to order, price unknown.
Also, whether or not the options one may want will even be released in our particular market.

The only "out" one has, (along with return of deposit), is if one changes one's mind after being presented with the price, (60 days prior to delivery), you can cancel.

My best guess? With the optional suspension like our A45S's, which I consider an essential for our country roads, close to $120k AUD, delivered..

If you went with the Ceramic fronts, add $10K AUD
That price is nuts. Was quoted $80k for new fully optioned Carbon edition 12 months ago. Quite a premium for the new model, same engine, new driveline that bassically copies a Focus RS $50k from 6 years ago.
Maybe you should look at the new c63 or m3 xdrive? Or date I say it Golf R 🤣

I think I will give up on mods to my A45s. Nothing seems cost effective or really worthwhile performance wise. Might as well stick with the 5yr warranty/servicing and enjoy it for what it is - a bloody quick, awesome handling practical car.

Have to get out of the modifying mentality. I guess we were spoilt with Aus built cars. I mean my Barra was 14% of the price of an E63 at the time. With mods - 20% of the E63 all up, easy reliable 10sec family car thats so much fun to drive. Would dip into the 9s if I had gone auto. Thats a 10yo car, dont think we will see many modded A45s in 10yrs.
 

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That price is nuts. Was quoted $80k for new fully optioned Carbon edition 12 months ago. Quite a premium for the new model, same engine, new driveline that basically copies a Focus RS $50k from 6 years ago.
Maybe you should look at the new C63 or m3 X-drive? Or dare I say it, Golf R 🤣

I think I will give up on mods to my A45s. Nothing seems cost effective or really worthwhile performance wise. Might as well stick with the 5yr warranty/servicing and enjoy it for what it is - a bloody quick, awesome handling practical car.

Have to get out of the modifying mentality. I guess we were spoilt with AUS built cars. I mean my Barra was 14% of the price of an E63 at the time. With mods - 20% of the E63 all up, easy reliable 10sec family car that is so much fun to drive. Would dip into the 9s if I had gone auto. That is a 10 year old car, don't think we will see many modified A45S's in 10 yrs.
LOL!! :)
I can only agree with everything you have written, although I have not given up on the A45S just yet.

Close to, I'll admit, but not quite!! :)

Re the RS3, in the current supply situation, forget any discounting.
Deliveries are basically, whenever. Just wait and shut up.
Re the price, the base vehicle, On Road, is roughly, (the best they could say) $110K.
However, who in Australia would own it on the fixed Euro spec suspension?.
I owned an original A45 like this, put 80K KM's on it; however would never own one again.
So, by the time you put the variable suspension in it, the good seats, and carbon trim, looking at minimum $120K On Road.
Ridiculous, I know; however, so is the world in which we currently all live.
 

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LOL!! :)
I can only agree with everything you have written, although I have not given up on the A45S just yet.

Close to, I'll admit, but not quite!! :)

Re the RS3, in the current supply situation, forget any discounting.
Deliveries are basically, whenever. Just wait and shut up.
Re the price, the base vehicle, On Road, is roughly, (the best they could say) $110K.
However, who in Australia would own it on the fixed Euro spec suspension?.
I owned an original A45 like this, put 80K KM's on it; however would never own one again.
So, by the time you put the variable suspension in it, the good seats, and carbon trim, looking at minimum $120K On Road.
Ridiculous, I know; however, so is the world in which we currently all live.
Hmm. At some point it will overcorrect and there will be oversupply again and prices will plummet. Maybe early 2023? Probably about the time I will get itchy for something new. Still have 3 cars at present so I will try and be patient....
 

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A word of advice , please.

During the development of the Tune in your vehicle, was there ever a point in time at which you had the ECU retuned, the clutch disc clamp load increased via the TCU; however nothing done to the CPC?
If so, what was the result?
if not, what did your Tuner warn you could have theoretically occurred?
During the early days into tuning the car, we completely have no idea what would happen as this is a brand new architecture. Hence, before putting the car on the dyno I did a ton of datalogging on the road under various conditions with different fuel just to have a baseline understanding of how the car would behave and react.

The CPC was only configured to have the torque limiter increased (to 750Nm for a start), exhaust valve reprogrammed to be open fully all the time and the speed limiter removed as well.

The TCU was left completely untouched as the flashing protocol was still in beta and we're not comfortable with it.

All the work that is done is solely on the ECU alone, including the torque clamp request table is also present in the ECU. Once we had the torque limiter increased in the CPC, we have not revisited it but only once as we believe we hit the 750 Nm we set previously (we saw the counter increased after swapping in the Akrapovic downpipe for a base run) so we went back and increased it further to 1000Nm which theoretically the engine would never reach.

I am currently on the 59th revision of the ECU calibration, and I don't have the exact mileage but a rough calculation I should have done at least 4000 km - 5000 km worth of logs in the form of partial throttle daily drive and WOT runs.

I am awaiting for the government to lift the lockdown restrictions so that I can put the car back on the dyno for further tuning.

Edit: The closest scenario I can think of that matches what you mentioned whereby the car has the ECU recalibrated with torque clamp requested increased with the CPC being completely bone stock would be another 2021 CLA45S that belongs to a friend of mine which was done back a month ago.

He did request for a very mild increase in the horsepower so the calibration that was put into his ECU is a very much down tuned version of mine, at least by 50% maybe even more.

However, he has yet to put on his car on the dyno so we wouldn't know how much is the car making before and after.

His situation was a bit different from others, he never intended to have his car remapped in the first place. He was only interested in having a bit more sound hence he went for a downpipe upgrade which then it triggered a check light.

So he asked for help to have the check light suppressed and at the same time he wanted a more aggressive exhaust note so the tuner gave him a lot more pops and bangs, and at the same time have his throttle response increased and might as well just give him a little power bump.

In this, yes the tuner did upfront mentioned that in order to keep the stock CPC happy, we shouldn't be aiming for crazy horsepower or else the CPC would then over a period of time attempt to reduce the power of the engine output.

One must understand that the CPC doesn't immediately just cuts power directly, basically it has a couple of counters which basically keeps track of how many times it is being violated and then it sends instructions to the ECU to reduce power. So depending on how often the counters are being violated, some would notice that the engine starts to develop less power sooner and some longer.

The longest he's seen was over a course of 8 months where a tuned engine with a stock CPC was able to revert the engine output to almost stock as it was reflected on the dyno.
 

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During the early days into tuning the car, we completely have no idea what would happen as this is a brand new architecture. Hence, before putting the car on the dyno I did a ton of datalogging on the road under various conditions with different fuel just to have a baseline understanding of how the car would behave and react.

The CPC was only configured to have the torque limiter increased (to 750Nm for a start), exhaust valve reprogrammed to be open fully all the time and the speed limiter removed as well.

The TCU was left completely untouched as the flashing protocol was still in beta and we're not comfortable with it.

All the work that is done is solely on the ECU alone, including the torque clamp request table is also present in the ECU. Once we had the torque limiter increased in the CPC, we have not revisited it but only once as we believe we hit the 750 Nm we set previously (we saw the counter increased after swapping in the Akrapovic downpipe for a base run) so we went back and increased it further to 1000Nm which theoretically the engine would never reach.

I am currently on the 59th revision of the ECU calibration, and I don't have the exact mileage but a rough calculation I should have done at least 4000 km - 5000 km worth of logs in the form of partial throttle daily drive and WOT runs.

I am awaiting for the government to lift the lockdown restrictions so that I can put the car back on the dyno for further tuning.
Thanks VERY much for the comprehensive response.

I presume you are dealing directly with the Californians at M3P?
I take it as read that you are happy with them?
Do you know the current status of the TCU software, as this is obviously where we should all be working with respect to applied pressure to the clutch discs?

I know what you mean regarding Lock Down restrictions!! :)
Hopefully ours come off on the 26th of this month.
Yours?
 

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Thanks VERY much for the comprehensive response.

I presume you are dealing directly with the Californians at M3P?
I take it as read that you are happy with them?
Do you know the current status of the TCU software, as this is obviously where we should all be working with respect to applied pressure to the clutch discs?

I know what you mean regarding Lock Down restrictions!! :)
Hopefully ours come off on the 26th of this month.
Yours?
Yes I am talking to Safa Yousef who is the founder of M3P and he's a personal friend of mine, back then he went to Caltech and I was in Stanford and that's how we know each other in the past. He's an ex aeronautical engineer by the way.

The TCU calibration by itself has its own way of behaving and yes although it accepts an input from the ECU to request torque clamp but it doesn't mean it will necessarily honour it from my limited understanding. For some reason the AMG engineers decided to change their approach unlike the previous generations of the A/CLA45s where the tuning was a lot more direct and there was a lot less dependencies.

Who would have expected they decided to introduce the CPC into our cars, although we've seen them done it to the facelifted C63S previously so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised after all. After reading up a bit, I realised the CPC is actually something that has been long present in their commercial vehicles like the heavy duty trucks.

As for the TCU, I do know for the protocol to flash the CLA45 is still in beta, but he did tell me that for the A45 he has done a couple of TCU flashes in the past, including one in the middle east if memory serves me right.

Regarding the lockdown, I think the government is hinting the earliest for them to lift the restrictions or partially would be year end provided we are able to keep the daily infected cases in check.
 

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Yes I am talking to Safa Yousef who is the founder of M3P and he's a personal friend of mine, back then he went to Caltech and I was in Stanford and that's how we know each other back in the past. He's an ex aeronautical engineer by the way.

The TCU calibration by itself has its own way of behaving and yes although it accepts an input from the ECU to request torque clamp but it doesn't mean it will necessarily honour it from my limited understanding.

I do know for the protocol to flash the CLA45 is still in beta, but he did tell me that for the A45 he has done a couple of TCU flashes in the past, including one in the middle east if memory serves me right.

Regarding the lockdown, I think the government is hinting the earliest for them to lift the restrictions or partially would be year end provided we are able to keep the daily infected cases in check.
Thanks again for that. I shall start comms with them shortly. (Once I have an operational gearbox!! :))
I am going to go out on a limb and say that the Dutch Tuner must really not be in Mr.Yousef's league, by the sound of it.

In any event I am sure you will instantly know the answer to this question! :)
What was your vehicle's standard HP and torque figures on the Dyno you are using?
 

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I am sure every tuner is good in their own unique way, I certainly wouldn't think of one tuner not being in the same league as other unless I've worked with both. I am sure the Dutch tuner would figure it out soon, just a matter of time.

I'll share what I can within my limited knowledge or what I've gone through, hopefully that could help others in any way it can.

Here is the dyno graph of my car before and after, baseline run was done in bone stock and the car was tuned with an intake and catback exhaust and stock downpipe. Hope it helps!

Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Pattern
 

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I am sure every tuner is good in their own unique way, I certainly wouldn't think of one tuner not being in the same league as other unless I've worked with both. I am sure the Dutch tuner would figure it out soon, just a matter of time.

I'll share what I can within my limited knowledge or what I've gone through, hopefully that could help others in any way it can.

Here is the dyno graph of my car before and after, baseline run was done in bone stock and the car was tuned with an intake and catback exhaust and stock downpipe. Hope it helps!

View attachment 8846
I think the problem might be that the software the Dutch tuner is using may not provide as much access / flexibility as that of Mr Yousef.
I am sure any good Tuner would know what was required to rectify slipping cutches; however, not much help if the software being used doesn't provide access!! :)

In any event, to your vehicle.
Not hard to see why you had slipping clutches !! :)
Is that around a 50% increase in torque at 3,500 RPM??? (My old eyes are having trouble reading your graph, sorry!)
Approximately 15% increase in power at 7,000 RPM ?
 

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I think the problem might be that the software the Dutch tuner is using may not provide as much access / flexibility as that of Mr Yousef.
I am sure any good Tuner would know what was required to rectify slipping cutches; however, not much help if the software being used doesn't provide access!! :)

In any event, to your vehicle.
Not hard to see why you had slipping clutches !! :)
Is that around a 50% increase in torque at 3,500 RPM??? (My old eyes are having trouble reading your graph, sorry!)
Approximately 15% increase in power at 7,000 RPM ?
Ah I do not have access to the exact figures on the tables how much clamp increase was requested unfortunately.

At 3500 rpm I see there is a difference of roughly 200 NM and 100 PS from stock, and at 7000 rpm a difference of roughly 70 NM and 70 PS.

So yes you are right about 50% increase at 3500 rpm and 15% at 7000 rpm.
 

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Thats very impressive results from tune and downpipe! Car must feel like a beast down low. Are you having traction/tyre issues?

Any attempts at repeogrammig the 4matic system? An extra 10-15% power to the rear would really transform the handling, found that to be the best mod on my previous Focus RS - where I added 25% to the rear. In the twinster programming you could increase the %torque sent to the rear wheels. Some drifters went extra 50%! The twinster system was a bit different in that 100% could go rear - thats how its drift mode worked, while the 4matic in our cars seems to be limited to 50% rear.
 

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Ah I do not have access to the exact figures on the tables how much clamp increase was requested unfortunately.

At 3500 rpm I see there is a difference of roughly 200 NM and 100 PS from stock, and at 7000 rpm a difference of roughly 70 NM and 70 PS.

So yes you are right about 50% increase at 3500 rpm and 15% at 7000 rpm.
LOL!!
Like I said, no wonder you needed increased clutch plate clamp pressure!!!

Our stock cars are rated at 500 Nm, as you know,
Our standard 8G trans is OEM rated to 520 Nm, with obviously a small safety margin.
The German Tuners all tell me around 560 Nm is safe, without increasing clutch plate pressure.
However, to go to 600 Nm they all say an increase in clutch plate pressure is required.
Given you must be approaching 750 Nm , as you reported , no wonder you needed increased clutch plate pressure!! :)

Your results give me increased confidence in my project, I must say, so thanks VERY much!!
 

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I hope you keep your car. :p


You hit 106 and no power loss, then there is probably a lot more to it than just engine oil temp and I'm definitely pushing the car more than you do. Or at least that's the only explanation I can think of. When mine climbs above 105 I'm starting to lose power. To be fair, usually I don't get to 105 so I'm good, but I always get to 100, so I'm not too far off. It's just another couple of runs. Last night I went out for another one of those night drives and I only got it up to 96 (from 85), but this time I did shorter runs (not above 170kph) and I also did back off between runs. But usually that's not the case. Anyways, it's probably a lot more complicated than that, but for power loss to never occur below 105, it means that either oil temp is also one of the parameters, or it could be entirely irrelevant, BUT, it just always happens to hit 105 by the time the parameters raise a red flag. Either way, same result, above 105 I'm losing power.


Exactly, I want to drive the car the way it was meant to be driven. Heck, even their teaser video was on the track! Look, usually I don't do 7 runs in a row, and without backing off between runs, but sometimes I wanna know I can, in my bone stock car! Well I can't! And so far I haven't taken the car to the track but now I know full power ain't gonna last 3 laps. That's ridiculous. And our cooling system is supposedly one of a kind, imagine if it wasn't, safe mode on the second run. The first time I heard the AC coming on I was like, ok that's pretty cool, got nothing to worry about. And worst case I'll lose 20hp to feed the compressor. Little did I know. I mean, is timing pull and boost drop that necessary? How is it possible that such a powerful cooling system can't cope? Yeah ok, 100hp less will do the trick. How about I pull over and switch off the engine for a few minutes, that would do it.
Theo,

another parameter the standard system is monitoring.

The fuel temperature in the secondary injector fuel rail.
This is important, as it is what we call in the mechanical engineering world, a "dead head" fuel system.
IE the fuel does NOT recirculate.
This is NOT good as it is prone to fuel temperature rise in the rail, particularly when the vehicle is used in your preferred style!! :)
If the fuel temperature rises sufficiently, it will vaporise in the rail and not flow correctly through the secondary injectors.
Given I know it is being monitored, I could easily believe it would be a another reason for the ECU to reduce the power level.

I am telling you, the further I get into the standard vehicle, the less I like about the vehicle's high temperature performance.
If I stick with the vehicle (and I probably shall, given the delays on the RS3 and the torque levels @changchewsoon is successfully putting through his trans), there is A LOT of detail engineering I shall change.
 

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Thats very impressive results from tune and downpipe! Car must feel like a beast down low. Are you having traction/tyre issues?

Any attempts at repeogrammig the 4matic system? An extra 10-15% power to the rear would really transform the handling, found that to be the best mod on my previous Focus RS - where I added 25% to the rear. In the twinster programming you could increase the %torque sent to the rear wheels. Some drifters went extra 50%! The twinster system was a bit different in that 100% could go rear - thats how its drift mode worked, while the 4matic in our cars seems to be limited to 50% rear.
Given the downpipe is in stock, yes I was quite pleased with the results. An aftermarket downpipe should give a little bit more oomph if the software can be further optimized to take advantage of it in my opinion.

I did a couple of times had the traction control light flashing at me especially when I'm turning out from a corner at low gears and if I floor the throttle all the way to the end. The most brutal one I've experienced was tires screeching off 2nd and 3rd gear with a friend next to me while we were doing a u-turn at the toll booth near my house.

I am not sure whether the tuners have been able to get to the maps that manages the 4Matic+ if there is any, I will ask them.

I agree with you, if there is a way to be able to control the torque distribution it will make the car a lot more fun to drive!
 

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LOL!!
Like I said, no wonder you needed increased clutch plate clamp pressure!!!

Our stock cars are rated at 500 Nm, as you know,
Our standard 8G trans is OEM rated to 520 Nm, with obviously a small safety margin.
The German Tuners all tell me around 560 Nm is safe, without increasing clutch plate pressure.
However, to go to 600 Nm they all say an increase in clutch plate pressure is required.
Given you must be approaching 750 Nm , as you reported , no wonder you needed increased clutch plate pressure!! :)

Your results give me increased confidence in my project, I must say, so thanks VERY much!!
I think I am definitely increasing the wear and tear of the 8G transmission prematurely considering the OEM rated is only at 520Nm.

At the same time, I am keeping a close eye on the transmission temperature.

One thing my tuner was able to do is to increase the cooling efficiency of the transmission, I observe the transmission is now always 10-20 degrees lower than the engine oil temperature whenever the car is being driven whereby in the past their temperature is quite close to each other.

With a cooler transmission temperature maybe this would also help in prolonging the lifespan of the transmission I hope.

The only thing I noticed was the transmission temperature now takes a longer time to raise to working temperature compared to normal but he will be addressing it in the next calibration.
Trip computer Vehicle Speedometer Odometer Gauge

Speedometer Odometer Automotive design Trip computer Tachometer
 

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I think I am definitely increasing the wear and tear of the 8G transmission prematurely considering the OEM rated is only at 520Nm.

At the same time, I am keeping a close eye on the transmission temperature.

One thing my tuner was able to do is to increase the cooling efficiency of the transmission, I observe the transmission is now always 10-20 degrees lower than the engine oil temperature when the car is being driven whereby in the past their temperature is quite close to each other.

With a cooler transmission temperature maybe this would also help in prolonging the lifespan of the transmission I hope.

The only thing I noticed was the TCU temperature takes longer time to raise to working temperature compared to normal but he will be addressing it in the next calibration.
View attachment 8848
View attachment 8847

I doubt he has improved the cooling efficiency of the transmission, as this is basically defined by the performance of the air to fluid heat exchanger in the nose of your vehicle.
However, the thermostat which controls the volume of transmission fluid moving through said heat exchanger, is electronic and controlled by the ECU.
He has obviously altered those calibration files.
This is also why the transmission oil is taking longer to warm up.

With old school automatic transmissions, running them cooler definitely improved their life.
With these modern DCT's, I am really not sure. Not enough personal experience.
I am guessing we are both going to find out!! :)
 

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Hello,

My car is back from the tuner and they remapped it to do 480 bhp and 550 Nm. Also the maximum torque is only there at higher RPM. The car not only drives and shifts better, but the clutch slip is completely gone.

The tuner also said there is for no way for them to upgrade CPC or TCU aut this moment.

Bottom line i guess is the 8G-DCT can't handle much higher torque and is near it's limits when stock. Without an transmission (software) upgrade it is not safe to go higher than 550Nm with these cars.
 

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@DutchA45s that is great to know that, I am sure now you can enjoy the car even more! :)

Just for your information the CPC is definitely not responsible for your clutch slip.

Just like your car my TCU software is also currently stock at the moment, but with the CPC upgraded I was able to go for higher torque.
 

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Hello,

My car is back from the tuner and they remapped it to do 480 bhp and 550 Nm. Also the maximum torque is only there at higher RPM. The car not only drives and shifts better, but the clutch slip is completely gone.

The tuner also said there is for no way for them to upgrade CPC or TCU at this moment.

Bottom line i guess is the 8G-DCT can't handle much higher torque and is near it's limits when stock. Without an transmission (software) upgrade it is not safe to go higher than 550Nm with these cars.
The good German Tuners are working in all three controls, ECU, TCU and CPC,. currently and indeed have been for at least 12 months..
I suggest you do some research of your own, particularly as they are so easy for you to access.

@changchewsoon 's American Tuner has proven that it is possible to transmit around 750 Nm through our transmission without clutch slip. so don't give up yet!! :) (I haven't :))
 
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