[nn7man]

@nn7man I have a few questions about your DTE box, if you have a minute.

Are you still happy? How does it drive in comfort? Everything smooth?
I saw your 100-200 kph has improved by about a second. Is the gain noticeable? Do you really feel more acceleration g's?
You've mentioned that you've also tuned the TCU and you did that with the box. How does that work? I didn't see a TCU tuning option on their website.
Debating whether the PedalBox is worth the extra money. I understand it eliminates the pedal response and makes it feel like the old cable throttle systems.

Not looking to have the fastest A45s on the planet obviously, or I'd have opted for one of those powerful UK tunes. Reliability is top priority and since Brabus is no longer an option, DTE sounds like a good alternative. Thanks.

Hey @Theo

Yes, I'm still happy with the box. It's hard to notice any difference at all in comfort, still drives very nicely. But if you're on it in Sport + or Race it is noticeably more ferocious. My 100-200kmh was 10.57s stock and I'm now running 9.15s albeit thats with intake and Akra back box too, I was hitting 9.45s with just the box. That's quite a difference and you can feel it.

The TCU tune is a separate product, it plugs into the OBD2 port and flashes the TCU then unplug and its all done. Can be used again if the dealer returns the TCU to stock. I'm not sure I can feel much difference if I'm honest. I've also bought the DTE Pedalbox but haven't got round to fitting it yet.

 

[Turbo Ed]

I hope it dries out by June/July when my much delayed road trip is meant to happen.

LOL!!
Well, the long range forecast would suggest things will have returned to "normal" by then.
However, you are coming out in the middle of our Winter and "normal;" for an Australian East Coast winter is WET!!

Alright, not wet as you would understand it, nor at your temps; however, wet nonetheless !!

 

[Turbo Ed]

Looks good
It would be good to have some verified numbers, from a Dragy, pBox/vBox, or Racebox.pro unit

Has anyone you know of undertaken a correlation exercise between any of the equipment you list and the car's own, as quoted by @1534walla ?

 

[veeeight]

Not an in depth exercise, but some owners report a variance of around 0.2 to 0.3s (car reporting faster times).

 

[Turbo Ed]

Not an in depth exercise, but some owners report a variance of around 0.2 to 0.3s (car reporting faster times).

Ah ha!!
That would explain a lot, as I was having trouble making it stack up with where I think his "real" power level is likely to be.
Thanks for that,

 

[1534walla]

If you see the video of OG (Officially Gassed) they compared the cars drag run with a dragy/vbox or similar

the cars reading was slower then the vbox so its not always the case the car says its quicker

 

[Theo]

Hey @Theo

Yes, I'm still happy with the box. It's hard to notice any difference at all in comfort, still drives very nicely. But if you're on it in Sport + or Race it is noticeably more ferocious. My 100-200kmh was 10.57s stock and I'm now running 9.15s albeit thats with intake and Akra back box too, I was hitting 9.45s with just the box. That's quite a difference and you can feel it.

The TCU tune is a separate product, it plugs into the OBD2 port and flashes the TCU then unplug and its all done. Can be used again if the dealer returns the TCU to stock. I'm not sure I can feel much difference if I'm honest. I've also bought the DTE Pedalbox but haven't got round to fitting it yet.

Much appreciated, thanks! Think there will be two of us DTE A45s's soon.

I wish there were more DTE owners for better feedback, but on the other hand you have provided verified 100-200 numbers which is worth 100 times more than a dyno figure. Of course you've provided that too. So your feedback is more than I was looking for. One last question, what TCU tune did you go with and what kind of slight improvement have you noticed?

On my 380+ hp full bolt on MK5 GTI Edition 30, the TCU tune made shifts noticeably faster (so much so that DSG farts were like three times louder) and increased the rev limiter from 6800 to a staggering 7500 rpm, although I was sure to shift at 7200 which was my sweet spot, as it peaked power at 6800 but was sustained to 7200 and only began to drop after that, so I was able to take advantage of a wider powerband, let alone landing to higher rpm after every gear change. It also did more than that, such as removing kickdown and increasing LC rev limiter, although the latter was pretty much useless (FWD). However the first two changes were so much of a performance improvement that even improved my 100-200; it's like I added another 10hp!

I don't suppose we get much of that in the A45s, given how tight the M139 tuning is, but I have to assume we at least get faster shifts.

 

[nn7man]

What TCU tune did you go with and what kind of slight improvement have you noticed?

I went with the DTUK (DTE) TCU+ tune. It's all about faster shifts (up to 40% faster claimed). It's not a tune designed to increase clamping strength for big torque etc. Faster shifts are just about noticeable but not night and day like your old Golf.

 

[Theo]

I went with the DTUK (DTE) TCU+ tune. It's all about faster shifts (up to 40% faster claimed). It's not a tune designed to increase clamping strength for big torque etc. Faster shifts are just about noticeable but not night and day like your old Golf.

Ah, no wonder why I couldn't see it; I was looking at DTE website where there's no TCU tuning option, just now saw it's on Diesel Performance UK which is where you got it from. Weird right? Why would it be on their UK partner website and not on their own. Anyways, I need that too, I mean there's not much more I'm gonna do with this car tuning wise, so I might as well add a TCU tune and gain that little bit extra. But I'd rather avoid customs or I can end up paying over a thousand euros for a little faster shifts, so guess it's time to contact DTE.

 

[veeeight]

Controversial post alert:

I am slightly sceptical about the product, based on nothing more than an informed hunch, that it doesn’t actually re-write any data in the TCU, but merely resets the adaptations that the gearbox has acquired/learnt about its own internal parameters.

This could well lead to say faster shifts (because it’s not yet learnt about its own internal wear points) for example.

(We used to do this initial adaptation “reset” on the W176 A45 regularly when the shift quality became “lethargic”)


However, I have no proof of this happening in this product one way or another.



More about adaptive gearbox:

Auto gearbox learning

I have read somewhere that the 7G-DCT gearbox will, over time, learn your driving style, and modify its parameters accordingly. Is this a myth, or does it really happen? Just curious.

www.aclassclub.co.uk

 

[Theo]

This could well lead to say faster shifts (because it’s not yet learnt about its own internal wear points) for example.

You mean because it's now dealing with roughly 100nm more torque and it has to adapt to that.

I dunno if our 8G-DCT is the same but DSG was constantly adapting (what we called "learning") to conditions and driving style. Some owners did experience jerky shifting at some point that was fixed with a simple reset if there were no hardware issues involved (and they rarely were as DQ250 was nearly bullet proof). A constantly adapting transmission would overwrite preferences based on data acquired in real time, making resets pointless one would think. But perhaps fragments of data will pile up over time causing disruptions, much like a computer's OS except what you do in that case is format the drive and have a clean fresh install, whereas the transmission gets a factory reset (come to think of it, it's essentially the same). Just a thought, I could be wrong.

 

[nn7man]

The instructions for DTUK's TCU+ state that returning the TCU to OEM stock requires a reflash at the dealer which doesn't seem consistent with it just resetting the learning.

However, it seems like the learning is definitely reset as part of the flash as they suggest you drive it like you stole it for 100 miles after installation

 

[Forrester]

LOL!!
Well, the long range forecast would suggest things will have returned to "normal" by then.
However, you are coming out in the middle of our Winter and "normal;" for an Australian East Coast winter is WET!!

Alright, not wet as you would understand it, nor at your temps; however, wet nonetheless !!

The idea is to head north from Sydney and end up at Palm Cove. I note QLD is opening up to interstate travel from 15/1 and Qantas are going to restart using the A380's through Singapore before then. But you guys will encounter a very strong spike shortly from the current omicron variant, but hopefully it will be short lived and not deadly as the previous variants.

 

[Turbo Ed]

The idea is to head north from Sydney and end up at Palm Cove. I note QLD is opening up to interstate travel from 15/1 and Qantas are going to restart using the A380's through Singapore before then. But you guys will encounter a very strong spike shortly from the current omicron variant, but hopefully it will be short lived and not deadly as the previous variants.

@Forrester
You should be fine with what you have in mind and for a Brit, you have actually picked the perfect time of year to be in QLD.
We are actually currently in the middle of the Omicron "spike". Should peak in three to four weeks from now on the East Coast.
The NSW / QLD Border will not be closed for Omicron; those days are past, on the East Coast, at least.
WA? Now that is an entirely different matter !!

 

[Theo]

This is where we were talking about the AC kicking in after back to back runs, right? I'm sorry I'm just a little lazy to go back 50 pages, after a quick search I didn't see anything.

Anyways got some interesting news. So even in a 7 degree weather I somehow managed to activate the AC. Took 3 or 4 short runs (like 5-7 seconds each) and then two long 1st gear runs to about 220 kph. First thing I noticed is that I heard the AC kicking in at "just" 101°C oil temp. Second, I felt no power drop when I did another short run like 2-3 minutes after that, well there obviously was since AC takes a bit of power to operate, but not something you can feel. Unless you think that couple of minutes was enough for it to recover? I doubt it. I think that last run was with the AC still on. So what I think is, after X consecutive runs depending on ambient temp, AC eventually kicks in and that's your first warning so to speak. You can go ahead and do another run right away, without a power drop (except what the AC will use to operate which I doubt is enough to actually feel), and then every run after that it takes away a bit of power, until you're left with a 100 hp drop as the last line of defense.

 

[Turbo Ed]

This is where we were talking about the AC kicking in after back to back runs, right? I'm sorry I'm just a little lazy to go back 50 pages, after a quick search I didn't see anything.

Anyways got some interesting news. So even in a 7 degree weather I somehow managed to activate the AC. Took 3 or 4 short runs (like 5-7 seconds each) and then two long 1st gear runs to about 220 kph. First thing I noticed is that I heard the AC kicking in at "just" 101°C oil temp. Second, I felt no power drop when I did another short run like 2-3 minutes after that, well there obviously was since AC takes a bit of power to operate, but not something you can feel. Unless you think that couple of minutes was enough for it to recover? I doubt it. I think that last run was with the AC still on. So what I think is, after X consecutive runs depending on ambient temp, AC eventually kicks in and that's your first warning so to speak. You can go ahead and do another run right away, without a power drop (except what the AC will use to operate which I doubt is enough to actually feel), and then every run after that it takes away a bit of power, until you're left with a 100 hp drop as the last line of defense.

@Theo
The safeguards are introduced, progressively as you say, by any one or more of the following fluid parameters moving out of spec.
The further they move out of spec. ,the more the power output is reduced.

1) Inlet charge temperature, as measured in the inlet manifold,.
2) Engine water temperature, in either of the two cooling circuits and this is NOT the figure shown on the dash as "water temperature" . Different sensors located in different parts of the engine.
3) Engine oil temperature. (I haven't yet identified if this is using the same sensor as shown on the dash).
4) Trans oil temperature.

Now, the big deal for you, me and any other owner outside the "Misty isles" ,is No 1.
This parameter moving out of spec is what engages the A/C cooling system.
Eventually, when that also cannot provide sufficient cooling of the inlet charge, the ECU starts backing off the power.
Its "End Stop" which we experienced on the Maha for a specific reason, is around a 100 HP degrade, as previously reported.

This particular design approach, above all others, is why @Craig70 may well turn out to be correct.
Perhaps none of us who live in an increasing normal climate, of 30C minimum summer temps, should have purchased an A45S.
It will be around 35C here in Melbourne today for the third day running and will be that or more now for days.
Perth in WA is about to have its sixth day in a row of over 40C.
Up in NW NSW where my family run cattle, it has been around 45C now for days.
Which of course is nothing compared to the Emirates in the ME. They reckon 50C is a starting point!!

Have you read about Black Boost's (Emirates) air to air replacement intercooler systems for the 4.0L TT V8?
Driven by their own work in this area.
Exactly the same issue with our vehicles.

It all has to do with AMG's approach to Euro 6 emissions requirements, fuel consumption and vehicle operation between -20C and +20C.
If you want and/ or are interested in the full tech explanation, just ask, although be warned, @Forrester will go spare, as it definitely won't be short!!

 

[Sixman]

Turbo charged cars and high ambient temps were solved a while ago.
WMI is better than any other fix for high IAT. Oil coolers for trans and engine if needed.

 

[Turbo Ed]

Turbo charged cars and high ambient temps were solved a while ago.
WMI is better than any other fix for high IAT. Oil coolers for trans and engine if needed.

Oh, Ye of little Faith !!!
If it was that easy, don't you think I would have suggested it?

How do you think I make 1500 HP from the LS3 in the Ute, with street cam timing and on 98 RON?
Impossible , literally, without MWI, as it needs around 25 PSI boost, even with excellent heads.
An LS3 will not cope with that on pump fuel, without something to help !!

Have you ever wondered why if you search results for WMI on FI automotive gasoline engines, you get such a mixed response?
Everything from absolutely fantastic, to makes no difference?

This is basically because to do it well, isn't easy.
If you want to start a discussion on WMI, start at new thread and we can discuss it there.
I'll restrict my answer here, to why it isn't the answer for the W177 A45S.

Firstly, the thing you need to keep in mind is the the original point of WMI as developed for Fighter aircraft in WW2, was to help control, Peak Cylinder Temps, NOT Intake Charge temps.
Done well and correctly, it absolutely does help control Peak Cylinder Temperature.

However, the IAT's in the W177 A45S cannot be significantly reduced with WMI, at least alone.
This is because you would be fighting a number of design parameters deliberately introduced into the engine control system by the engineers in the first place.
They "want" to run the IAT's relatively high, for fuel consumption numbers and Euro 6 compliance.
They have a number of factors at work to achieve this result.
You introduce some WM into the intake air, and the vehicle's ECU will make a number of adjustments to cancel out the effect quite deliberately.

The Safeguards which are designed by the OEM Engineers to kick in with "over enthusiastic use in warm climates" are absolutely essential to preserve the engine, given the original design parameters.
Need to change the basics, along with some ECU programming if we are going to get a good result in ambient over 30C..

Although not as complicated as the above, even your engine oil cooler suggestion, is not as simple as you suggest.
However, a topic for another day.
Suffice to say, the OEM system, is not so much an "Oil Cooler" as a "Fluid Heat Exchanger" , designed to get the water and oil temps to the same temp as each other, as fast a possible.

 

[Theo]

You introduce some WM into the intake air, and the vehicle's ECU will make a number of adjustments to cancel out the effect quite deliberately.

But a WM specific tune should fix that. It wouldn't do anything on the stock map except resemble optimal ambient conditions so you can make the most power possible (which is about 435hp as we've established) whether you're in Alaska or the Arizona Desert, but tuning for WM would keep the ECU from making any adjustments to cancel that out. And on that note, choosing the right spot to place the nozzle can make a world of difference.

 

[Turbo Ed]

But a WM specific tune should fix that. It wouldn't do anything on the stock map except resemble optimal ambient conditions so you can make the most power possible (which is about 435hp as we've established) whether you're in Alaska or the Arizona Desert, but tuning for WM would keep the ECU from making any adjustments to cancel that out. And on that note, choosing the right spot to place the nozzle can make a world of difference.

@Theo
I strongly doubt that type of tune is possible within our particular vehicle's ECU.
It is too "smart" or "arrogant" take your pick, for that.
Since our particular vehicle's IAT's are so closely linked to fuel consumption and emissions performance, the number of interlinked tables would be truly mindboggling.

Don't get me wrong, I love WMI, done correctly and in the correct application.
I have a very sophisticated, (both mechanically and electronically) WMI system on my Ute interlinked to the MOTEC M1 which is the engine's main ECU.

However, with our AMG's, both our 2 Litre engines and from Black Boost's work in the Emirates I feel I can safely say, also the 4.OL TT V8's, what needs to be done is to change the basic mechanical components so that certain issues NEVER occur and then tune accordingly.

Black Boost have done this on the V8's by switching to a massive Air to Air Intercooler system (IE RS3) and this is definitely one approach.

I am going to attempt a different approach; however with the same objective in mind.