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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Guys,
I wouldn't dream of commenting on the commercial aspects of the different tuning approaches and specifically not from the other side of the world.
However, as a 50 years of experience turbo application Engineer, I can tell you that the absolute possible peak power output is set by compressor mass flow, intercooler efficiency, fuel octane/ ignition timing and finally ambient conditions.
Tuners can claim any power numbers they like, achieved by any method they like; however they cannot change basic physics.
I have owned all three iterations of the A45, Original, FL W176 and current W177 45S and in one area they all have one thing in common..

AMG apparently prefers to only provide somewhere just over 10% in turbo compressor headroom.
(Which I must admit, is in stark contrast to the RS Division of Audi, who seem to usually supply at least 30% of compressor headroom).

So, bottom line?
Any tuner who claims they can increase the peak power output of the current 421 HP A45S, by more than around the 45HP mark, all variables being equal, needs to be treated with a high degree of scepticism.
Mid range Torque??
Now that is quite different and so long as the drivetrain can handle it, big gains are certainly possible there.
I would suggest that THIS is where the difference in tuning approaches may become most apparent technically, if not commercially.
I strongly doubt a "Tuning Box", no matter how good, could compete with a professional recalibration of the ECU's controlling both Engine and Gearbox,
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Dyno tune complete at evotech Sydney (International Autohaus).

My car was 318kw stock now 360kw at the flywheel (300atw) and 492nm up to 562nm. I am really pleased with it!

Launch now doing consistent 3.7 flat, high 3.6s and making some great sounds.

Allen the tuner was slightly disappointed with the NM gain, as he was looking for around 585, and he said a contributing factor was that mine has new software, being a ‘21 and may take another look when I have it in again.

Great guys and a great operation!

The tune is software only with the charts before and after further up the thread.

Considering now just servicing with Allen and Con @ International Autohaus and doing some hardware mods.

What should I do next?
I looked at your previously posted sheets from the only Maha dyno I know of in Australia, with interest.
40 KW improvement or 55HP
I know how Maha claims to derive engine HP from the number measured at the wheels and I shall not get into a discussion here on the subject, as it is potentially a VERY long one and somewhat off topic.
The important thing is, you are happy with it and fundamentally, that is all that matters.

I shall stick to my previous comment though.
The best Tuner in the world cannot change the laws of Physics.
Your current Tuner MAY be able to improve mid range torque further if you give him more time.
I just hope he has the transmission control software as well, as he will probably need it.

The one thing I can say for sure though is, if you are looking for more power, (as opposed to more torque), you will need a larger compressor.
I don't believe TTE have their product out yet; however GotTuned out of Poland have something on the market.
No direct personal knowledge of it; however looking at the Specs, should be good for around 550 HP or 410 KW
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Good numbers. What also interested me is that the stock number is 435.1 bhp. I wonder is that is more typical to countries where there are not the same exhaust restrictions as Europe.
This is precisely the reason it is best NOT to treat so called "engine" power numbers from ANY brand of chassis, ( "rolling road") dyno, as an absolute figure.
If we are going to start discussing this subject, I would respectfully suggest a new thread.

The incremental increase of any power mod? Sure, that can be measured as shown; however it it best left stated as what in fact was measured.. An increase at the wheels.

Ultimately, of course, what matters is that the customer is happy with the vehicle, not any numbers.
On the subject of which, have any of you tried Posaidon in Germany?
 

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This is precisely the reason it is best NOT to treat so called "engine" power numbers from ANY brand of chassis, ( "rolling road") dyno, as an absolute figure.
If we are going to start discussing this subject, I would respectfully suggest a new thread.

The incremental increase of any power mod? Sure, that can be measured as shown; however it it best left stated as what in fact was measured.. An increase at the wheels.

Ultimately, of course, what matters is that the customer is happy with the vehicle, not any numbers.
On the subject of which, have any of you tried Posaidon in Germany?
I can’t remember a post on Posiadon. But I think it was called something else previously.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I would suggest someone from the Forum contact Herr Hummes at Posaidon. [email protected]
(Excellent written English)
They have both Tuning Box and ECU recalibration options.
Not cheap; however show me a quality German tuner who is!! :)

They also have some extremely interesting engineering data on the W177 A45S, although not sure how much of that they will be prepared to share in a public forum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Point of clarification, I was NOT saying Maha is unreliable.
I was saying that it is almost, (stress, almost) impossible to accurately infer (as that is what it is, an inference) accurate engine HP from numbers measured at the tyres.
This is true of any chassis dynamometer I have ever seen, anywhere in the world, over 50 years in the Industry.
However, as I said in the beginning, if we are going to discuss this, best to start a new thread.

There is little or no relationship between 400M ET and HP.
In order to get to the bottom of this situation, I would need his trap speed and in the quick look I just made at his data, i could not see it.
If you can get me stock trap speed and his, I can certainly tell you what that represents by way of incremental HP.

Yes, as you quite rightly suspected, I do have full tech on the M139 Turbo.
Not prepared to post yet; however shall do so in the fullness of time, as I outline what I have in mind to do with my vehicle,
 

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Point of clarification, I was NOT saying Maha is unreliable.
I was saying that it is almost, (stress, almost) impossible to accurately infer (as that is what it is, an inference) accurate engine HP from numbers measured at the tyres.
This is true of any chassis dynamometer I have ever seen, anywhere in the world, over 50 years in the Industry.
However, as I said in the beginning, if we are going to discuss this, best to start a new thread.

There is little or no relationship between 400M ET and HP.
In order to get to the bottom of this situation, I would need his trap speed and in the quick look I just made at his data, i could not see it.
If you can get me stock trap speed and his, I can certainly tell you what that represents by way of incremental HP.

Yes, as you quite rightly suspected, I do have full tech on the M139 Turbo.
Not prepared to post yet; however shall do so in the fullness of time, as I outline what I have in mind to do with my vehicle,
Well if you wanna be 100% accurate you gotta pull the engine out and put it on the bench, but who does that? But Maha dynos are highly accurate and are proven to be.

He trapped 122.34 mph and as I said he did 11.16. Stock A45s does anywhere from 11.9 to 12.1 depending on grip and other conditions, and traps around 116-117 mph please anyone correct me if I'm wrong. Of course he's got a CLA45s which is a little heavier so that might take an extra tenth or so, and trap just a little less, but we're talking about minor difference. If you want weights, the CLA45s should weigh in at approx. 1680kg (since the A45s weighs in anywhere from 1600 to 1630kg depending on spec). So what do you think?

I'm sorry I wouldn't think why you don't wanna post our turbo specs, if you do have them, like it's some kind of top government secret (excuse the sarcasm, just couldn't help), but I respect your wish. Looking forward to that post then.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Theo,

You are correct, so I hope you are happy!!. An incremental 55 flywheel HP, presuming ALL variables, such as fuel octane, ambient conditions, are IDENTICAL etc etc.
In a real Engineering exercise, one would do the comparison on the same day same car, of course.
IE, does the guy in particular just happen to have a really nice stock spec car that was 10HP over standard rating as delivered?
Certainly not out of consideration.
One thing I can say with certainty.
His tuner is SERIOUSLY leaning on the stock turbo and he is 5% past the 60% compressor flow line.
 

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I'm not just happy, you just made my day. I'm kidding :)

Mate, I know about incremental hp, I know how the result comes out, just wanted to see how you think as I found your statement a little weird, that tiny 10% of headroom I mean. And I'm sure it's not just me. But remember what I said, I don't question your knowledge, I said I'm willing to accept that 10%. It's my first MB car anyway, I'm new here, so I wouldn't know.

I'm no engineer, probably have a fraction of your knowledge, but I've had several discussions on the subject (dynos, hp and all that) with people with several years of expertise, in 5 different forums, in 15 years. I've built hybrid turbo setups, with water methanol or not, which is why I asked if you have our turbo specs - I always want turbo specs in all the years of owning turbocharged cars. I also know about that Polish company that makes hybrid turbos, unfortunately they haven't announced detailed specs. I once thought of emailing them, pretending to be interested in their product and somehow extracting that info (our stock turbo specs) but then I thought that some human being would be spending minutes of his working time to answer my questions and just didn't seem right. Or maybe I'm too nice in a sh!tty world.

I dunno, he'd have to tell us what he dynoed stock, if he has even dynoed his car. It just seems that nobody has dynoed higher than spec, except @Gunn but could it be that gpf-less cars make slightly more power? I wouldn't know. I don't even know the full detail of Australian spec, like is cat the same? Only thing I know is you guys don't have that piece of crap gpf.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I see the moderators have moved us to what amounts to our own Thread!!! :)
I also see someone has posted DYNOJET numbers on the original thread.
Given that "Dyno" is at the the diametrically opposed end of Chassis Dyno Tech to a Maha, I am surprised you have not commented!!! :)

In any event, to keep on topic.
Yes the example vehicle is probably somewhere around 13% over stock, as opposed to my originally stated 10%.safe maximum.
However, this has been achieved by exceeding the design limits of the Turbo.
Does anyone care?
Well the two reputable German Tuners I mentioned certainly do, as they will not exceed 465 HP on the stock turbo.

However, obviously not the Tuner who did the example vehicle, that is for sure.
That said, don't you think owners should know what is being done to their relatively expensive stock turbo?
THAT was the real point of my original post.( I'll bet the tuners doing this will not tell the customer, even if they know)

IE if any of us want greater than a10% increase over our stock wW77 A45S Power outputs (Not Torque), we need to be considering a Turbo swap.

Australian Spec is UK Spec without the Filter.
However. ALL our A45S's come with the AMG performance exhaust as stock. Not sure if that is the case in the UK; however I am sure you will know!! :)

In the interests of International co-operation :)
Stock A45S Turbo
Compressor Inducer 50 mm
Exducer 63 mm
Turbine Inducer 57 mm
Exducer 50 mm

However, please don't' get too hung up on these numbers. Technology can play merry **** with the resultant flow numbers, at both ends of the turbo.

Just to give you an idea, from both ends of my personal career, so fifty years apart.
When I entered the industry, 350 HP from a 50 MM inducer would have been considered state of the art. Today if one was not achieving 500 HP, it is just average.
(Yes, the comp wheel in our stock A45S turbo is just average)
 

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In any event, to keep on topic.
Yes the example vehicle is probably somewhere around 13% over stock, as opposed to my originally stated 10%.safe maximum.
What is your source for the 10% safe maximum, beyond your opinion?

As Theo said earlier and probably a little more diplomatically, it sounds like you are pulling that figure out of your proverbial.

Sorry, but I would trust my tuner who is ex-Mercedes, owns the tuning company (which is based in Germany) and tunes high-end AMGs day in day out, to great and wide acclaim, over years, over some anonymous dude on an Internet forum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Go for it, no one said you were forced to believe me, entirely your own call as you rightly say.

My source is the compressor flow map and no, I shall not post it,
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I'm not just happy, you just made my day. I'm kidding :)

Mate, I know about incremental hp, I know how the result comes out, just wanted to see how you think as I found your statement a little weird, that tiny 10% of headroom I mean. And I'm sure it's not just me. But remember what I said, I don't question your knowledge, I said I'm willing to accept that 10%. It's my first MB car anyway, I'm new here, so I wouldn't know.

I'm no engineer, probably have a fraction of your knowledge, but I've had several discussions on the subject (dynos, hp and all that) with people with several years of expertise, in 5 different forums, in 15 years. I've built hybrid turbo setups, with water methanol or not, which is why I asked if you have our turbo specs - I always want turbo specs in all the years of owning turbocharged cars. I also know about that Polish company that makes hybrid turbos, unfortunately they haven't announced detailed specs. I once thought of emailing them, pretending to be interested in their product and somehow extracting that info (our stock turbo specs) but then I thought that some human being would be spending minutes of his working time to answer my questions and just didn't seem right. Or maybe I'm too nice in a sh!tty world.

I dunno, he'd have to tell us what he dynoed stock, if he has even dynoed his car. It just seems that nobody has dynoed higher than spec, except @Gunn but could it be that gpf-less cars make slightly more power? I wouldn't know. I don't even know the full detail of Australian spec, like is cat the same? Only thing I know is you guys don't have that piece of crap gpf.
 

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What is your source for the 10% safe maximum, beyond your opinion?

As Theo said earlier and probably a little more diplomatically, it sounds like you are pulling that figure out of your proverbial.

Sorry, but I would trust my tuner who is ex-Mercedes, owns the tuning company (which is based in Germany) and tunes high-end AMGs day in day out, to great and wide acclaim, over years, over some anonymous dude on an Internet forum.
I was asking myself exactly the same question. Also the 30% for the VW group.

I see the moderators have moved us to what amounts to our own Thread!!!
On the thread being split. I think there will be overlap so it's not a pure technical/general compartmentalisation. For instance a discussion around Brabus only offering a 29PS power uplift is not a technical discussion.
 

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I have also stuck both the two tuning threads in the A45s section so that people can see them easily. But after this current bout of enthusiasm there will probably come a time to unstick one or both.
 

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Can @Turbo_Ed explain the Brabus stage 1 software only tunes which way exceed 10%? e.g.

Brabus B40-600 for C63S, GLC63 etc - 600 PS v 510 PS stock, an 18% gain

Brabus B40-700 for G63 - 700PS v 585 PS stock, a 20% gain
 

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Can @Turbo_Ed explain the Brabus stage 1 software only tunes which way exceed 10%? e.g.

Brabus B40-600 for C63S, GLC63 etc - 600 PS v 510 PS stock, an 18% gain

Brabus B40-700 for G63 - 700PS v 585 PS stock, a 20% gain
Again what what I was thinking and the same for the A35 tunes.
 

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No, not a secret, a compressor map provided to me in confidence, which i intend to respect,
Yeah but see it can't work this way man. You are essentially calling pretty much the majority of tuners unreliable in terms of turbo longevity (yes the majority, as most tunes make anywhere from 475 to 490ps - I would say 480 could be an approx. avg) without providing any relevant data to back that up. So people will just have to take your word for it.

I see the moderators have moved us to what amounts to our own Thread!!! :)
I also see someone has posted DYNOJET numbers on the original thread.
Given that "Dyno" is at the the diametrically opposed end of Chassis Dyno Tech to a Maha, I am surprised you have not commented!!! :)

In any event, to keep on topic.
Yes the example vehicle is probably somewhere around 13% over stock, as opposed to my originally stated 10%.safe maximum.
However, this has been achieved by exceeding the design limits of the Turbo.
Does anyone care?
Well the two reputable German Tuners I mentioned certainly do, as they will not exceed 465 HP on the stock turbo.

However, obviously not the Tuner who did the example vehicle, that is for sure.
That said, don't you think owners should know what is being done to their relatively expensive stock turbo?
THAT was the real point of my original post.( I'll bet the tuners doing this will not tell the customer, even if they know)

IE if any of us want greater than a10% increase over our stock wW77 A45S Power outputs (Not Torque), we need to be considering a Turbo swap.

Australian Spec is UK Spec without the Filter.
However. ALL our A45S's come with the AMG performance exhaust as stock. Not sure if that is the case in the UK; however I am sure you will know!! :)

In the interests of International co-operation :)
Stock A45S Turbo
Compressor Inducer 50 mm
Exducer 63 mm
Turbine Inducer 57 mm
Exducer 50 mm

However, please don't' get too hung up on these numbers. Technology can play merry **** with the resultant flow numbers, at both ends of the turbo.

Just to give you an idea, from both ends of my personal career, so fifty years apart.
When I entered the industry, 350 HP from a 50 MM inducer would have been considered state of the art. Today if one was not achieving 500 HP, it is just average.
(Yes, the comp wheel in our stock A45S turbo is just average)
First of all thanks for revealing your secret. That was quick, I wonder what changed your mind. Nevermind, I'm happy that you did. That's what forums is all about btw, sharing knowledge and experience. And yes, sharing our excitement too.

Average by what standard? I would say for 2 liter engines such as Audi S3's it could be a nice big turbo upgrade. I wouldn't say it's average. But anyway, let's not argue about that too, wanna call it average, average it is.

Now, on the 10% safe maximum.

You're saying the two reputable German tuners won't exceed 465hp because they know better. Which is not the case with MSL (the example vehicle). And that "owners should know what is being done to their relatively expensive stock turbo", again, implying, actually more than implying, that they're operating beyond the design limits of the turbo, overspeeding the turbo in other words. First of all let me tell you, that's not necessarily catastrophic, I've done that before except what you need to do is run thorough logs and closely monitor several things such as cf's. In many cases you need to run water methanol which can be the only way to lower temps caused by overspeeding. We used to do that with K04-064 turbo (S3 8p, MK6 Golf R, Edition 30 GTI, Scirocco R, Leon 2 Cupra etc) whose map ends at about 370ps, beyond which, you have to upgrade wastegate and use a harder spring and if you get boost way up, you got temps and then you got cf's that can only be dealt with water methanol injection, then you can up timing as well and make more power. That way the K04-064 can even make 420ps and we're talking about a fully bolted stage 2+. And that's an extreme example, there's no way M139 turbo would be anywhere near that at stage 1.

Yes, the more boost you run beyond map, the less your turbo is going to last. Much like every other part that you're asking to do more than it was designed for. But you're making it seem like @Gunn's turbo will grenade any time. You know how everyone drives? If you're a little careful and don't do 100 runs on your way to work and back, chances are you can enjoy your turbo for years to come. I've never had a single failure. Brabus only makes 450ps for one reason, just one reason alone; they provide huge warranty, meaning you can keep driving your car exactly as you did when it was stock. But see, that's marketing right there, driven by risk assessment. Brabus thinks they likely won't be able to cover potential failures with a stronger tune, because likelihood would exceed their safety %. That means that for every X cars they tune, a small % will fail and that costs them money. So what they do is make as much power as their model suggests. The rest is up to the customer, you want warranty stick with 450, you wanna take a small risk go more. But no way does running 490ps mean you're killing your turbo. Assuming the tuner knows what he's doing. You need to run several logs you don't just click a few buttons and off you go. Certainly doesn't make the majority of tuners unreliable and don't tell me you didn't call them unreliable because come on, you did, I mean "don't you think owners should know what is being done to their relatively expensive stock turbo" ??

I bet Mr. Herr Hummes at Posaidon that you just happened to suggest in your first 4-5 posts, knows better. I'm sorry, couldn't help that either.
 
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